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TMHS 770: Eat These 5 Foods to Live Longer! – with Dave Asprey

TMHS 334: Keto Myths & How to Go Complete Keto with Drew Manning

The ketogenic diet is generating a lot of buzz these days. Headlines often refer to it as a fad, Atkins 2.0, and even warn of its potential issues long-term. But let’s all remember this important fact: there isn’t one perfect diet suited for all humans. From bio-individuality to lifestyle differences, we all operate a little differently.

If done correctly, the ketogenic diet can be a powerful tool for burning fat, finding mental clarity, and improving digestion. To better understand the basic mechanisms of how keto works, today I’m bringing you one of the most qualified experts I know—Drew Manning. Drew is a NY Times bestselling author and outstanding coach who has done the research, written an awesome book about keto, and (most importantly) he walks his talk.

His new book, Complete Keto, is much more than your average cookbook. It covers all bases, from a basic framework of eating and biology, to the myths surrounding the keto diet. Additionally, Drew taps into the mindset shifts and emotional breakthroughs that are part of any lifestyle change. If you’re thinking about making keto part of your life, you’re going to need this information to succeed. Enjoy this conversation with the one and only Drew Manning!

In this episode you’ll discover:

  • How to maintain muscle mass on a ketogenic diet.
  • The mental benefits of following keto.
  • How to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
  • Why your brain loves ketones.
  • The neuroprotective benefits of the ketogenic diet.
  • What the keto flu is, and how to alleviate its symptoms.
  • The average amount of time it takes for the human body to get in ketosis.
  • Why it’s so difficult to overeat on a ketogenic diet.
  • The preferred testing method to determine if your body is in ketosis.
  • How ketosis can help your body tap into stored fat.
  • The shocking world record for consecutive number of days fasting.
  • What gluconeogenesis is.
  • The types of carbohydrates to eat on the keto diet.
  • Why salt has been demonized, and its crucial role in the body.
  • The truth about eating fat.
  • How mental and emotional healing play into weight loss.


Items mentioned in this episode include:

Thank you so much for checking out this episode of The Model Health Show. If you haven’t done so already, please take a minute and leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple Podcast by clicking on the link below. It will help us to keep delivering life-changing information for you every week!


Shawn Stevenson: Welcome to The Model Health Show. This is fitness and nutrition expert, Shawn Stevenson, and I'm so grateful for you tuning in with me today. Listen, you know it, I know it, keto is hot on the streets, alright? Everybody's talking about this ketogenic diet, and though we talk about and highlight many different nutritional approaches here on the show, I just want to make sure that you have an array of options and great tools and resources in your superhero utility belt to use at your disposal. But for me, I want to make sure that I'm bringing on the very best people in their respective fields to talk about these different nutritional approaches. And today I've got one of the best people on the planet. He lives this, he walks his talk, he's been doing this for several years, and he's been a friend of mine for several years. This is his fourth appearance on the show. Fourth, you know? So basically every hundred episodes he's jumping in here and sharing his wisdom. And he's just one of my favorite people period, we got a great workout in this morning which we'll probably talk about in a little bit, but this keto lifestyle. To learn from him and his new book, 'Complete Keto,' which I have right here, and it's such a fortune to be able to have advance copies of great books like this. But listen, it's far more than just your average cookbook. There's so much in here, and we're going to talk about that today, but I wanted to make sure that you have some of these little insights about the ketogenic approach, why it works, myths around it, and we're going to dive into that today. But listen, he just flew in red eye. I think he had two red eyes. Which it's kind of weird to have one red eye I guess, but two red eyes, and as soon as I contacted him today, I was like, "Do you want me to bring you something? I'm going to bring you something. How about some Four Sigmatic?" And so I did, I brought him some Four Sigmatic to the gym. No first of all, he texted me back, he was like, "All of it." Alright? And I brought him some to the gym, and here's why. So when we're traveling, when we've got a lot going on, when we're dealing with stress, one of the things that can happen is our immune system is going to get a hit. And here's why I'm a big fan of medicinal mushrooms. Medicinal mushrooms- first of all, they're known as immunomodulators, so this means that it's not pushing your immune system in one way. Synthetic drugs push your immune system in one direction; it's either suppressing the immune system or it's lifting the immune system up. These medicinal mushrooms have an innate intelligence that interacts with human cells that can lift your immune system if need be, or bring it down if need be. So if you're like, "Why would I want my immune system to be down?" Autoimmunity, for example. That's when your immune system is overactive. And so that's what's so beautiful about- specifically let's look at chaga. Several studies indicate that chaga significantly increases the effectiveness and activity of your natural killer cells. So these are immune system weapons that literally are getting trained and activated to go and take out pathogens that you might be exposed to. And probably the biggest factor that I really love about chaga is its ability to increase your body's natural production of antioxidants, specifically superoxide dismutase which is this super antioxidant. Again, safeguarding your immune system, safeguarding your DNA. Powerful. I'm telling you, it's just like chaga- it's like the Kevin Costner of- it's like the bodyguard. Alright? Rishi as well. This is one of my favorite things. I just had a cup of rishi. I usually do this before bed, but it's a mediator of inflammation. Specifically polysaccharides and rishi were found to enhance the proliferation of T cells and B cells. These are immune system components, and I did a master class on what those are, their roles. Make sure to check it out, I'll put it in the show notes for you. Ten Simple Ways to Fortify Your Immune System Function that I did not too long ago. But these are directly supporting, and in the right way. Again, it's immunomodulating, supporting your immune system. Also sleep. Rishi- this was a study published in 'Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behavior' found that the renowned medicinal mushroom rishi taken before bed significantly decrease sleep latency - that means you fall asleep faster - increased overall sleep time, and increased non-REM, AKA deep sleep time as well. So even if you're going to be short on sleep, this can help to support you getting high quality sleep in the time that you are getting. Alright? So huge fan of these. I get mine from Four Sigmatic because it's dual extracted, organic, simple and easy to use. The dual extraction is taking an alcohol extract and a hot water extract. So you're actually getting all the nutrients we're looking for that they're talking about in these studies. You don't even know what was the extraction method done. Right? So head over there, check them out. My cabinet is full of Four Sigmatic products. I love them so very much. It's That's and 15% off everything that they carry. Get yourself some. I brought my guest this morning- when he texted me, 'All of it,' I brought him a box of the Four Sigmatic cordyceps chaga coffee. Alright? So to be supportive of the people I love, hooking him up with the shrooms. Head over, check them out,, and now let's get to the Apple Podcasts review of the week. ITunes Review: Another five-star review titled, 'A Show That Can Change Your Life, If You Let It,' by GasellM909. "Dear Shawn, after becoming a regular listener of the show, I decided I needed to meet Shawn in person. I needed to know that this amazing person who transpires such positive energy through a microphone actually exists. I flew out to St. Louis from Florida with the little college tuition money I had left to buy a flight. I just want to say that the positive energy Shawn beams off in person is exactly more than I imagined. I was too shy to go up and introduce myself at the Take Control conference, but I just want to say thank you for sharing your story so openly and vulnerably. Knowing that such kind people exist in the world makes me want to check my character every day." Shawn Stevenson: Wow, that's just so powerful, and I don't even really know what to say. That's just- thank you so much for sharing that. You should have come and said hi to me and got our hug on. You know, but it's just such a testament to you and who you are to take action and to come and be a part of something like that. And thank you for seeing me, and my character, and my attention, and I just appreciate that so much, and I appreciate you. Everybody, thank you for heading over to Apple Podcasts and leaving reviews for the show. If you've yet to do so, please pop over and do it. Alright? I appreciate that so very much. And on that note, let's get to our special guest and topic of the day. My guest today is my friend, my man, New York Times bestselling author, Drew Manning, back for the fourth time. Alright? It's not a three-peat, is it a quad-peat? Is that what we call it? Drew Manning: I think so. Shawn Stevenson: New York Times bestselling author, the man behind the Fit2Fat2Fit movement. He is the guy who purposely gained- he was super fit, gained seventy-five pounds, and went through that. He tracked everything, and shared his experience of gaining weight, experiencing what it was like to share with everybody, and to get a better connection with the people that he was working with, the people that he was wanting to teach and to inspire. And he did that over six months, and then the following six months proceeded to work to lose that seventy to seventy-five pounds, and it was not what he thought it would be cracked up to be. And through that process he's developed so much compassion and empathy and vulnerability and he's just a man out here sharing knowledge at one of the highest levels. And I'm inspired by him, grateful to have him in my life. Brand new book, 'Complete Keto,' is out. Get your copy ASAP, it's going to be a great addition to your library. Welcome back, my man, Drew. Drew Manning: Thank you, Shawn. I really appreciate you, man. Yeah, hopefully your audience isn't sick of me. But maybe there's some new followers that haven't heard of me or listened for the fourth time. Shawn Stevenson: It's always like that, man. Like we've made some big progress over these years, you know? You and I. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: It's just like a totally different reality. Drew Manning: It's crazy, yeah. That was like two or three years ago that I was first on. I think I was in Hawaii recording that podcast, you know? And this is our second time in person. So I'm just super appreciative that you're allowing me to come on and share my story, man. Shawn Stevenson: Oh man, it's only because it's you, man. You know? Like you're one of my favorite people. Drew Manning: Thank you. Likewise, man. Shawn Stevenson: And you know what? What's so crazy is since then you've started your own show. I'm not going to say that I gave you the nudge, or like kicked you out of the nest or whatever, but it's out there, it's killing it, and such great episodes, man. Drew Manning: Yeah, thank you so much. Man, you're the one who kind of challenged me to do it, and so I was like, "Okay, I'm going to listen to Shawn." And so I learned how to do it, and here- I'm coming up on episode 200 soon. So it's fun, man. It's powerful, and you're one of the few ones that I look up to in the industry to see how to do it right. You know? And so I don't think there was any other podcast I would actually go on four times other than yours. So I'm appreciative, man. Shawn Stevenson: Definitely, bro. Well it's good having you back, and I want to talk about- well first of all, I've seen you live this lifestyle. You know? I remember it was a couple years ago, we went out to eat here in St. Louis. It was a good meal, and I'm just in my head, because you know I'm around these people in the field, and a lot of them- especially the people who are in my life walk their talk. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And I was just fascinated honestly. I was like, "Okay, obviously he's doing the ketogenic approach." But I was surprised by how little you ate. You know? And yet you're carrying this muscle mass around. We worked out this morning. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And so my first question is can you- which we know the answer, but how are you able to maintain your muscle mass eating keto? When we're programmed to believe you need all these carbohydrates to do that. Drew Manning: Yeah, that's a great question, and I get asked that all the time. And this is an interesting thing, like when I first switched over to keto, I was nervous because I was like, "I'm going to lose my muscle mass if I don't eat every two or three hours," which is what I used to teach people. You know? Like, "Hey, if you don't eat every two or three hours, you've got to keep your metabolism up." Shawn Stevenson: You're going to go catabolic. Drew Manning: There's a funny episode of Brooklyn 99 with Terry Crews, and he has like his little timer, and he was like, "I can feel my body eating its muscle because I haven't eaten." Shawn Stevenson: You know what's crazy? Little side story- and shout-out to Susan, who's a television producer for Fox. Drew Manning: Oh, really? Shawn Stevenson: And she sent me an autographed Brooklyn 99 poster with all the actors. Oh my goodness gracious. Drew Manning: No way. Shawn Stevenson: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love that show, man. It's one of those like little brain candies for me, you know? Drew Manning: Yeah, it's a classic. And so I remember the episode of him like, "I can feel my body eating its muscle just to survive because it's been an hour since I last ate." Shawn Stevenson: And we can relate to that. Like when he says, "Yeah!" But that's not the case. Drew Manning: It's not the case. So I went from eating six or seven small meals a day to eating once or twice a day. And here's the thing, is my brain felt optimal, my digestion was better because our generation- our parents' generation, we've always had access to food. Right? We've always had grocery stores, or nowadays you can push a button, Uber Eats shows up, there's food on demand. And so we've never had to go a long period of time without food. And so I was nervous about that, but it's so interesting, once I did keto, my brain was sharper, my digestion was better, and I wasn't a slave to food. You know? I used to be that guy with the big Tupperware containers, and have my alarms set, and got each meal- six meals planned for the day. And so to go from that to eating once or twice a day and feeling optimal, and being able to maintain your muscle mass. And how it works is ketones are very protein sparing energy source for our body. So your body will preserve its lean muscle mass and use fat as its primary source to fuel. And so for me, yeah I eat once or twice a day and have so many people tell me like, "You don't eat a lot." And now that I'm getting older, it's more for anti-aging, longevity purposes. I'm not trying to be the biggest, strongest, fastest Thor-looking guy in the gym anymore. And so I'm okay with maintaining what I have, and feeling sharp- mentally sharp up here and having better digestion, and hopefully living longer. Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. Man, and what's crazy- and I haven't said this to you before, but you like look a little younger despite all the traveling. Drew Manning: Thank you, Shawn. I appreciate that. Shawn Stevenson: All the stuff you've done. You know? Over these couple of years. And it's just a testament, man. And there's so much solid science, and you put a lot of it into the book. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: Regarding the ketogenic diet and the anti-aging benefits as well. But you know, I was just fascinated by that, by like how is he able to maintain? But my next question is would somebody be able to gain muscle mass? We talked about this earlier a little bit, but it's just like obviously it's a lot of work. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: Like you've got to be more diligent about eating, and when you're so satisfied with the way that you eat, it's more difficult to eat or overeat. Drew Manning: Yeah, that's a good point. I have two friends that are doctors that did a really cool study where they took two sets of bodybuilders and put them on a twelve-week test. One was a ketogenic group of bodybuilders- these were already big dudes, right? And then the other group was a traditional bodybuilder diet. Right? And so what they did over the course of twelve weeks was they both were at a calorie surplus, and they both lifted heavy. And what happened at the end of the twelve weeks was both groups put on the same amount of lean muscle mass in twelve weeks. It was roughly the same amount but the ketogenic group lost fat mass during that time and the other group that was high protein high carbohydrate, they actually gained fat mass during those twelve weeks. So yes you can, but you have to be diligent and you have to be at a calorie surplus. You have to lift heavy and so it is possible. You know? Either way you do it- I don't think one way is superior to the other way, it just depends on what fits your lifestyle. Shawn Stevenson: That sounds too like Indiana Jones, like Holy Grail for me, man. Because that's the thing that we want. Can we gain muscle and lose fat? Drew Manning: At the same time. Shawn Stevenson: That's what everybody's looking for. Drew Manning: 100%. Shawn Stevenson: And we were programmed to believe that you can't do both, right? Especially in this kind of same- not exactly at the same time, but just in that same parallel. It's just like bulking season, cutting season. Right? Drew Manning: Yeah, exactly. Choose one or the other. Shawn Stevenson: It just really turns that on its head. But again, I want to reiterate that especially these high quality fats from real food sources, you just feel more satiated. It's more difficult to overeat, and that's- for some people it might sound like it's even a dream or a mystery that you actually- "Good for you, you're satisfied, huh?" But for real, you know? It's like it's much easier to- even sweet potatoes, you know? Like I love sweet potatoes, it's easier to eat more calories with sweet potatoes. Sweet potato brownies as well. But eating like chicken thighs, or salmon, like you can't eat that- like your body literally- those proteins, the fats shut off that ghrelin, turn on leptin, and you just feel more satisfied. Drew Manning: Yeah. Remember the old Pringles commercials? 'Once you pop, you can't stop'? Shawn Stevenson: Oh man, forget about it. Right? Drew Manning: When it comes to those kinds of foods, we can over-consume those. But yeah, try and over-eat a steak with butter, you know? Your body is going to let you know when you've had too much steak with butter. Shawn Stevenson: It reminds me of The Great Outdoors. John Candy. Drew Manning: Oh, John Candy where he didn't finish the gristle from the- Shawn Stevenson: The steak. Oh my goodness. Shout-out to that movie. Drew Manning: Yup. Shawn Stevenson: When I was a kid and I saw it, I just rewound like the part where he shot the bear's butt. It was just like, for me, the funniest thing. But you know, that scene where he was trying to eat that steak. Yeah, it's just one of those things. But if it was donuts. Like you see these food competitions. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: They're eating like bread, right? But man, yeah that's just crazy. So I would love to talk now a little bit about- I know that this is something you do, this is your lifestyle, it's given you all of these benefits. You've impacted the lives of countless people at this point with your programs, now the official book is out. But I want to know what drew you personally? Like why did you decide like, "Okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to take on this ketogenic approach"? Drew Manning: Yeah. What drew Drew, right? Shawn Stevenson: When I said it, I was like, "Oh." Drew Manning: No, it's all good. What drew me to start keto? Is that what you're asking? Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. Drew Manning: Okay, so I was listening to a podcast with Dr. Dom D'Agostino, who's like the superstar of ketogenic diet. He's been on Joe Rogan a few times, and Tim Ferriss a few times, and he's the guy. And so he was talking to Tim Ferriss about how he did a ten-day fast, and after his ten-day fast, he dead-lifted 500 pounds for ten reps, and did 585 for one rep, and this was ten days with no food. I'm like, "How is that humanly possible?" And so I listened to the episode, and learned about all the scientific research that has been done on the ketogenic diet that I had no idea. I thought it was just another diet to lose fat and lose weight. So after the episode, and I was blown away by it, I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to do an experimentation. I'm a self-experimenter, why not give it a try?" And so I did it, I fell in love with it because of those reasons that I mentioned - the mental clarity, the improvement in cognitive function, I wasn't a slave to food anymore, better digestion, and I could still kill it in the gym. And so after those sixty days I was like, "Man, I love the way my brain feels." But here's the surprising thing; I didn't lose any fat, I didn't lose weight - I wasn't trying to necessarily - and I was already lean to begin with, and my performance in the gym was about the same. It wasn't like, "Oh, now I'm a superhuman," but I felt like Bradley Cooper from Limitless. Like taking that pill, and doing algorithms, and speaking different languages. Just kidding, I didn't have that, but I felt like that. I'm like, "Wow, my brain feels so amazing." And so that's what sold me on it, and that's why I love to do it. You know? It's not for fat loss or weight loss for me personally, that's a byproduct of any diet. You can lose weight on any diet, right? Let's be honest. But the thing I love about keto is the improvement in mental clarity for a lot of people, because their brain is running off of a different fuel source. It's running off of ketones. There's a great book called 'Unbreakable,' it was a movie too, and the book is way better. There's a scene or there's a part in the book where this guy, his plane gets shot down during World War II - it's a true story - and he survived at sea I think for forty-some days, him and his crew. And after like a few days of suffering, no food, no water, being out stranded at sea, there's this moment that he talks about where him and his friend wake up one morning, and they had the most remarkable mental clarity ever where they could remember the most intimate details about their childhood and have conversations for hours about all these small details that most of us forget about from their childhood. And it clicked for me, I'm like, "Man, he probably didn't know it, but he's in ketosis after four days of no food." Right? And the mental clarity that he experienced, that's kind of what it's like. It's this euphoric feeling of your brain's awake, and it's a different fuel source. Because most of us have been running off glucose and sugar and we go through these highs and lows and highs and lows, and ketones is a totally different fuel source. And so that's why I got into it, and that's why I wrote the book, was to help people not just with physical transformation, but also on the mental and emotional side, and I feel like a clearer brain can help us be more optimal as humans, but can help us with a complete transformation on the mental and emotional side because we're thinking more clearly and we're open to new ideas like meditation and, "How can I further optimize myself?" That's why I wrote the book. Shawn Stevenson: Man, that's powerful. That's so powerful. I didn't even- until I read this, until I read your new book 'Complete Keto,' I didn't think about for you personally that that was one of the experiences that you had, was this was a tool or a bridge for you to be more vulnerable, for you to be more open to change, and I think it came at a good time in your life. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: For all that to happen, and just was really supportive of that. Because you're even a different person than I knew two and a half years ago. Not different, you're more of you. You're more you, you know? And it just seems like there's more freedom, and it just seems like you're just so clear. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: You know? So it's really cool to see, man. Drew Manning: Thank you. Shawn Stevenson: And by the way, so I want to talk about really quickly, one of the things- Drew Manning: What? Shawn Stevenson: So in talking about the brain. Drew Manning: Okay. Shawn Stevenson: You say in your book, 'Your brain loves ketones as much as Beyoncé loves bedazzled bodysuits.' She does! Like you put that in the book, and I was like- first of all, Beehive. I don't know if you know about the Beehive. They're very, very aggressive, you know? This is her nation, her community. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: Right? So I'm just like, "I don't know if they're going to be taken aback by this?" But she does. She does love bedazzled bodysuits. But your brain loves ketones. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: So you said in the book, 'Ketones provide your brain with really efficient fuel as well as neuroprotective benefits.' So what does that mean? Drew Manning: Yeah, that's a great question. I first learned about this from Dr. Dom, right? His research is funded by the Department of Defense. Right? So he works with Navy SEALs who do these deep dive missions where they're under water for long periods of time, and a lot of these Navy SEALs suffer from brain toxicity. Right? And so he was developing a way- a method for them to protect their brains from this, and that's where he started using exogenous ketone supplementation - ketone salts and ketone esters - to see if that would give their brain a neuroprotective benefit, which it did. And that way these guys in the military didn't have to get into ketosis by eating a ketogenic before they went on a mission. You know, they have to be ready at all times. And so by supplementing with something that is taken, ingested exogenously, and being able to give those benefits to the brain, is remarkable. And that's when I first learned about it, and now there's research with Alzheimer's and Parkinson’s and diseases of the brain where- and even concussions and traumatic brain injury, where exogenous ketone supplementation or just being in a state of nutritional ketosis can help provide those neuroprotective benefits for the brain. So I've learned from some people, like you have sea fighters who work with doctors, that will have them on either a nutritional keto approach or taking exogenous ketones to help them recover from concussions. Right? And so it's kind of newer research, and that's what I've learned from following Dr. Dominic D'Agostino and these guys that this is what they study. Shawn Stevenson: And if anybody's wondering what he's sipping on right now. Drew Manning: This isn't Kool-Aid. Shawn Stevenson: Like Drew's got the orange Kool-Aid? Drew Manning: Got the orange stuff, purple stuff, Sunny-D. Shawn Stevenson: Man, I love that purple stuff. I've got to be honest. Drew Manning: I thought it was better than Sunny-D. Shawn Stevenson: Sunny-D was just kind of off. Like it did taste like orange- it tasted like orange juice mixed with milk. Let's be honest, that's what it tasted like. Drew Manning: Truth. Truth. Shawn Stevenson: Great marketing. When they had the commercials like, 'Apple juice, some purple stuff.' I'm like, "Ah, I want the purple stuff. That's my favorite." Drew Manning: That's funny. Shawn Stevenson: So yeah man, but another thing that you talk about and you mention several times, and I just want to quote you directly from the book. 'Not being a slave to food.' Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: That's such a powerful statement, and one of the things you talked about was how ketones burn longer basically. It's a more efficient fuel source and it doesn't operate like carbohydrates which are- and I want you to give that example. But you say that your body can store up to about 3,000 calories of glucose at one time, which most people burn through in a day or two. Or you can tap into about 30,000 calories of stored fat for fuel. So our bodies have all of these calories just stored that we're not using because we're constantly bringing in new carbohydrates. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And it takes several days to burn through those. Drew Manning: Exactly. Shawn Stevenson: So let's talk about the fuel source of carbohydrates versus getting into ketosis. Drew Manning: Yeah, it's a conversation. So here's the thing that's going to blow people's minds. You know, a lot of us don't think we can go a long period of time without food, right? But the world record for number of consecutive days fasting is 382, you guys. Look it up. It's by a 460-pound man in the 1960's who was monitored by a doctor. It's published in medical literature, you can look up this experiment. He had water and vitamins and minerals to keep him alive, but he lived off his own stored body fat. He lost over 200 pounds in 382 days. It's the longest monitored fast that we know of that's been published. So I'm not saying you or I could live that long without food, but we don't know what our body is capable of unless we experiment with it. And so most people out there, if they stop eating today, ketosis is your body's natural backup system to help you survive for long periods of time. It's just that we've never experienced that because we've always had access to food and we've been told to eat three square meals a day since we were young, since our parents were young. And so a lot of people have never experienced what that's like, but your body can literally tap into its stored body fat and use that as a slow-burning sustained energy source for a long period of time. Shawn Stevenson: Without actually starving yourself. Drew Manning: Yes, without actually starving yourself. You know, it's how I was able to do a seven-day fast. I've done some four-day fasts and some three-day fasts, and being in a state of ketosis helped me be able to do that a lot easier than if I ate a huge pizza and then started my seven-day fast. Because that's the thing, is we'll eat these carbohydrates, we'll carb up before a race or something, and store as much carbs as we can. But that's why you see marathon runners and endurance athletes bring in these goos and these quick sources of glucose, because they're burning through it so quickly. And the picture I paint in the book is ketones- or glucose is kind of like if you threw paper or lighter fluid on a fire. That fire is going to instantly light up and increase in the size of the flames, but really quickly it's going to come right back down, and that's like glucose; you burn through it so fast. And then ketones are like the logs or the coal of the fire. It's a slow-burning sustained energy source that stays heated for a long period of time, and we can tap into that stored body fat as an energy source- an efficient source of energy if we get into a state of ketosis, which there's a transition. It doesn't happen overnight. Shawn Stevenson: So let's talk about that, because I mentioned earlier that we can have these benefits of your body using its stored body fat without starving ourselves. So number one, you can go through fasts more efficiently, which has all these anti-aging benefits, immune system benefits, the list goes on and on. But you can actually just live your life and still eat food, you know? And not literally starve yourself, and continue to eat, and still be supportive of your body's natural ability to go into ketosis. And so what I want to ask you about is the transition. Like there's terms out there now, people are like, "I've got the keto flu." Drew Manning: The keto flu. Shawn Stevenson: You know? So how does this transition happen? How long does it take? Drew Manning: Yeah, so that's a great question, and it's different depending on the person. Right? It's different for each person. So you know, if you fast, if you stop eating, probably within twenty-four to forty-eight hours, every human- almost every human on this planet will shift over into a state of ketosis, where your body starts producing ketones, it's burned through all of its glucose, and then it's got to find an alternative fuel source. Right? How are we going to survive past these two days with no food? Your body will start producing ketones, right? It'll break down fatty acid and through the liver converts them into ketones which are a fuel that your brain muscles and organs can use as a fuel source. And so it's different for each person. If you transition from a carb-heavy diet to a ketogenic diet, it'll probably take your average person maybe two to five or seven days max to be in a state of nutritional ketosis. And a way to track that is by testing your blood ketones. You prick your finger like on one of those- it looks like a glucose meter, and you prick your finger, you put the blood in a strip, and it'll tell you what your blood ketone levels are. Anything above a 0.5 is nutritional ketosis, and so you can actually test it to see if you're in ketosis or not. But your average person is going to take like two to seven days. Shawn Stevenson: So really quick, the testing method. So is that the preferred method? Drew Manning: It's the gold standard. There's these urine strips that you can pee on, but those aren't very accurate because as you start to become more efficient at using ketones, they won't show up as much in the urine because that's what your body is getting rid of. That's waste, right? So there's blood, breath, and urine ketones, and blood is the gold standard way of testing. Shawn Stevenson: They've got breathalyzers? Drew Manning: They've got the breathalyzers now. I've had some people blow- actually there's some kind of effect with ketones where if you breathe and you're in a state of ketosis, it can show up on a breathalyzer. Like so just saying, if you get pulled over and be like, "I'm in ketosis." Shawn Stevenson: Wow. Drew Manning: "I’m in ketosis, I swear. I haven't been drinking, Officer." But anyways, yeah that's the gold standard way. And you know, the thing is, the keto flu for example, which a lot of people can experience, is usually because people aren't prepared or they haven't done their research of how to do keto. They think it's butter, bacon, and cheese all day long. And like, "I can eat as much fat as I want and I'll be in ketosis." It doesn't work that way. You know? You've definitely got to do your research. Check out the book if you want like a basic guide of how to do it and how to not experience the keto flu. If you stay hydrated and you stay up on your electrolytes- so sodium, potassium, magnesium, supplementing with those. So lots of salt can help get rid of any type of keto flu symptoms. Which it can range from people feeling lightheaded or dizzy, or feeling like they have brain fog, or cramping sometimes of the muscles. And the reason people experience that is because you've got to understand, your body has been running off of glucose for however old you are - thirty, forty, fifty years for the most part. Right? If you've been eating mostly carbs. And now all of a sudden you're saying, "Okay, no more glucose. We're doing keto." Your body hasn't adapted to that new environment yet of like, "Okay, how do we use ketones efficiently." Right? Your body will learn, you've just got to be patient with yourself. So the first two weeks can be rough for some people, but I give some hacks in the book of how to overcome the keto flu so that the transition is easier. Shawn Stevenson: What is the title of that section? '99 Problems'? Drew Manning: '99 Problems But Keto Ain't One.' Shawn Stevenson: Alright so wow, that's so fascinating, man. So the transition for people, it may take a day or two for the average person. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And what's the difference with being keto adapted and being in ketosis? Because you talk about that in the book and there's a distinction. Drew Manning: Yeah, there's a distinction. So once you become keto adapted is usually- by that time your body has adapted to using ketones efficiently, and that could take anywhere from thirty to sixty, maybe upwards of ninety days for some people staying consistent in a state of ketosis where your body will then learn how to adapt to these new sources of fuel; the ketones. And once it adapts, then your efficiency of using ketones is elevated and it's easier for your body to use ketones, and you feel optimal. That's where the euphoric feeling, the mental clarity really kicks in. And that's why people love keto at that point, is because they came for the weight loss or the fat loss, but they feel so mentally sharp by that point, and that's when you know you're keto adapted versus just being in a state of ketosis. Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, and I think being keto adapted, it's easier to get back into it. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: If you do have a tryst with a donut or whatever it is. First of all, I'm a very visual person, so don't have a tryst with a donut. Okay? But real talk, if we go outside- if we have something that is higher in- so what is- first of all, what are those numbers? Right? If we're looking at how many grams of carbohydrates can kick us out? Talk about that. But first, there is a part of our brains that runs on glucose. So we need a certain amount for sure, so what is that amount, and what could kick you out of ketosis? Drew Manning: Yeah, that's a great question. So here's the interesting thing. Your body has the ability to produce its own amount of glucose that it needs. So if you stopped eating carbohydrates, like let's say you ate zero carbs. Right? Your body, through a process called gluconeogenesis, can break down and convert its own glucose for your brain, your liver. I think those are the only two that use the glucose- that need glucose. Shawn Stevenson: Specifically, yeah. Drew Manning: Yeah, specifically. So your body has this amazing capability to do it, even without carbohydrates. But when you're eating the ketogenic diet, you can- it's very individual. It's very by an individual how much carbohydrates you can and can't have, and this is where people get so fixated on the numbers that it causes them stress, and then they think, "I went one gram over. I'm not in ketosis," and they freak out over that. So generally what I say is when you're just getting started, no matter who you are, try thirty grams of total carbohydrates, mostly from vegetables. Right? Not from like one donut, or half a donut, depending on what you're eating, but get those carbohydrates from quality sources, real food sources. Things like spinach, and kale, and broccoli, and cauliflower. Shawn Stevenson: People don't realize that these vegetables are carb-dominant foods. Drew Manning: Yes, exactly. Shawn Stevenson: Right? But they're low glycemic and they don't have a lot of actual- especially when we're talking about like the net carbs. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: Right? With the fiber and all that. Drew Manning: Yeah, so just make sure you pick the quality over quantity when it comes to carbohydrates. Because people will say, "Oh, you can't have fruit on keto. You can't have this or that on keto," and that's not necessarily the case. It's all about context. I can eat a piece of cake if it's thirty grams or less and stay in ketosis. But you know, I don't want to waste my carbs on a piece of cake versus the nutrients that I'm getting from some type of vegetable. And so that number is going to range. Because I've been doing keto for so long, I can get away with some days, seventy to eighty grams of carbs and still be in a state of ketosis. But someone that's sedentary that doesn't lift or work out a lot, they might need to be a little bit lower. So that's where the testing really comes in, and it's really important to find out what your carb threshold is so that you know, "Okay, I can get away with forty or fifty grams and still stay in a state of ketosis, and I feel great. I feel optimal." Same thing with protein, too. Right? Find out what your carb threshold is and your protein threshold is so that as you keep doing keto, you know what your optimal levels of these macronutrients are. Because the way I do keto now isn't the way I did keto when I first started. Right? I developed and evolved the way I do keto because I've had to tweak it because there was a period of time where I was doing too low carb for too long, and my body didn't like it that low carb for so long. And so that's why sometimes you'll see me eat a sweet potato or potato with my keto meal, and I know that's great for my body because I've done my bloodwork, I've done testing, I test my ketone levels, and so that's what I'm saying. People are like, "You eat potatoes? That's not keto." I'm like, "I do, and it works." So just find what works best for you, and I teach you exactly how to do that in the book. Shawn Stevenson: Yes. Yes you do, and that's the thing, man. And that's why I wanted to have you on because you have a much more holistic approach and a bigger perspective about it, because you've actually done it, and you're somebody who's a high performer, you've got a lot going on, you lift, bro as well. You know? And just like you have to be able to cater this stuff to your own life, and it should sound obvious, but so many of us, we're just looking for, "Just tell me what to do." Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: We've got to take some personal authority in this matter, and it can be fun. You know? Like you've had this experience of experiencing it. You know? And really figuring things out for yourself. So I want to take a step back and talk about- you mentioned earlier about taking the exogenous ketones. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: So there are some things that can help us to get into that state a little bit quicker, or use that kind of fuel for our brain, for our liver, that kind of thing. So you've got exogenous ketones, but also MCT oils. You use MCT oil, right? Drew Manning: I do, which is a great source of healthy fats for our body and for our brains as well, because MCT oil can get converted into ketones really quickly in the body, so it's a great energy source. And I don't know the science behind it, if this is true or not, but MCT oil, when taken, isn't really stored as fat because it's converted to energy so quickly, it crosses the brain blood barrier, and that's why our brains- especially as we get older. If you're older and you're listening to this, and you've had issues, try supplementing with MCT oil. Right? And see how your brain feels. Especially if you didn't grow up eating coconut oil or these healthy sources of- which is 60% MCT. Right? These healthy fats for our brains. You know? We didn't really grow up eating them. We grew up eating Captain Crunch and skim milk. Shawn Stevenson: For butter I had that Parkay, man. Country Crock. Drew Manning: Country Crock. So I love- I'll use MCT oil powder, which is easier on my stomach versus just the straight-up oil. But MCT oil, if I can get it, I'll put that in my coffee. I'm hoping Starbucks one day comes out with MCT oil. Shawn Stevenson: Oh, it's just a matter of time because of the demand, you know? And this is something like every day for me as well. I love MCT oil. And like you said, this has the ability for- and then we've got research now; improved cognitive function, improved energy, improved digestion. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: So these medium-chain triglycerides are like for pathogenic bacteria, viruses. It's like kryptonite, you know? So it's great for that as well. And like you mentioned about the digestion for the liquid, it can cause some like little rumbly discomfort. Drew Manning: If you eat too much, you'll know it. Shawn Stevenson: But I've found that my body really loves the emulsified oil. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: And it tastes great and it's super easy to mix. Like I literally pack it with me, I throw it in my suitcase. I love it so much. And so I use the one from Onnit. Drew Manning: Onnit's a good brand. Pumpkin spice. Shawn Stevenson: And we love those guys. Drew Manning: Pumpkin spice is good. Shawn Stevenson: Pumpkin spice, that's seasonal. Drew Manning: Only in the fall though. Shawn Stevenson: You know? Of course. So I really love the almond milk latte, which is a new one. Drew Manning: I haven't tried that one yet. Shawn Stevenson: And so I have that pretty much every day, or I'll change it out with vanilla, cinnamon swirl. But so it's emulsified, so it's like creamy. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And I don't have any digestion woes when I have it, and just like- it just sustains me. Because today, both of us were lifting, and we were lifting- like we got there, popped up, doing handstand pushups. I got home and my wife was like, "So how was the workout?" I was like, "It feels so awesome to work out with somebody who can do what I do." You know? And then she was like- Drew Manning: She got offended? Shawn Stevenson: She did. I wasn't trying to offend her. Drew Manning: Yeah, you didn't mean to. Shawn Stevenson: Because she's my gym partner. Like she's my gym buddy. And you know, so I had to like make that right, and just clarify like, "No baby, it was this." Because you know, like we push each other, but it's just different. Whatever I'm thinking I can do, you do it with me; the muscle-ups, the handstand pushups. And both of us were pretty much in a fasting state. You know? We had our coffee with the MCT oils, and we can do all that stuff. I've deadlifted 400 pounds, same thing. Just like off of a cup of coffee. And I just started drinking coffee. I think I told you this, it was like a year and a half ago, because of Four Sigmatic. You know? Because it just- for me, I had that neuro-association, like with the Parkay. When I was a kid around that same time, like my grandparents, they would have like Country Crock, and my grandmother had her Folgers coffee. And I sipped it one day, I think I was like five or six, and I was just like- I could not understand why you would drink it. Like I just- I literally was like, "What is wrong with them?" Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: Is this part of being an adult? You drink stuff that's horrible? That tastes disgusting? And so I just never had it again until my wife just kept raving about it. Like just her experience of having it, and not having that crash. So yeah, huge fan. So I have those two things together in the morning, and both of us can still perform at a really high level. You know? And also giving our bodies the opportunity to use stored fat for fuel instead of carbing up, because your body works on that LIFO/FIFO. Right? Last in, first out. First in, first out. Drew Manning: I love that. Shawn Stevenson: Right? So if we've got coming in carbs, and it's a very readily available fuel source, why would your body take the effort to break down fat and use it for fuel? It's a very arduous process and it doesn't want to do it. You know? So just another reason I love this approach. So again, I want to take another step back and ask you about- oh, by the way. Onnit emulsified MCT oil, guys. Get yourself some. I love it so much, one of my favorite things. I use it literally daily. Go to That's and you get 10% off everything. Their emulsified MCT oils, they have the classic MCT oil as well. The Alpha Brain, I know we're both big fans of that. Just head over there, check them out. I promise you're going to love it. It's one of those great benefits, especially for a ketogenic approach. So check them out, So I want to step back and ask you, you mentioned salt, and you just kind of ran through it, and I was like, "Wait a minute." Why is this important for a ketogenic approach? I think it might be the most important 'supplement' that we focus on. Why is that? Drew Manning: Yeah. Well first of all, the interesting thing with salt, is similar to fat, they've both been demonized for a period of time. Right? We've been taught fat is bad for us, we've been taught salt is bad for us. And so it's kind of ironic that salt is just as essential as eating salt for our bodies. And so salt's really important because here's the thing. When you switch over to keto, you eat mostly fat, your body is not retaining as much water. So your body- the first day or so, you're peeing like a race horse because your body is expelling a lot of water. And with that lost water, you're losing minerals as well, essential minerals that your body needs. And one of those is sodium, right? Salt. And so it's really, really important to replenish that salt so you feel optimal. So around two teaspoons per day is what I tell people is what you should be getting in. And most people are like, "Oh so more salt, so it's a couple more sprinkles?" I'm like, "No. Put a half teaspoon in your hand, look at what that feels like, lick it, and chug a bunch of water afterwards. Almost all your keto flu symptoms will be gone." Right? And that's one of the little hacks you can use to stay hydrated and balance out your electrolytes. Now I'm not talking about table salt, not the stuff that's perfectly white, because that's not what salt looks like when it comes from the earth. Shawn Stevenson: Aged and bromated, all this stuff. Drew Manning: Yeah, and they even add dextrose sometimes now to sweeten it a little bit or as like a preservative for flavoring as well, and so that's not the type of salt I'm talking about. I'm talking about real salt, right? There's pink Himalayan salt, there's real salt. There's a mine in Utah that I love that has all the trace minerals still intact. If it's not white, it's like pinkish, and specks of brown and black, that's the good salt. Shawn Stevenson: So you literally- when you said real salt. So that's the brand? Drew Manning: Yeah, Redmond is the brand, Real Salt. Shawn Stevenson: You've been there, haven't you? Drew Manning: I've been to the mine. You can literally go up to the walls and lick the sides of the walls and it's salt. Shawn Stevenson: Did you do it? Drew Manning: I did it. I did it. I grabbed some off the ground, and like crushed it in my hands, and I have these salt rocks at home, and that's literally what they do, is they take it out of this mine that's unpolluted, and it was an old sea bed I don't know how many millions of years old, and they just put it in these bottles, and boom. That's the kind of salt you want. Right? And you'll feel so much better if you take in five to seven grams of salt per day on the ketogenic diet. Shawn Stevenson: Wow. That's- it's so simple, but like you said, it's been- well first thing is this. In relationship to why it would be so important. When you're not taking in those carbohydrates, like you said, you're going to be expelling a lot of water because the name itself, 'carbohydrate.' Carbohydrate. And every gram of carbohydrate is going to have your body store about four grams of water. And so when you're eliminating a lot of those carbohydrates- so that's one of the things people see, is just like they're losing weight. Sometimes it's a lot of water as well, and when you're losing that water, you're losing those minerals. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: And also, salt really draws in water. Like it pulls water to your cells as well. So I think about us like- there are these pretty strong theories that we evolved- like came from the ocean at some point. Like basically we're Aquaman. Drew Manning: Basically, yeah. Shawn Stevenson: What are they called? They're Atlanteans. Drew Manning: Yeah, Atlanteans. Shawn Stevenson: You know what I'm saying? But I mean, as far as like a single cell organism, and just kind of evolved from there. And I see that we've taken and put- the aquarium is inside of us still. Like we're still- like we have that salt balance that we really need to be an ideal kind of water- we're a water being, really. You know? We're mostly water. And so yeah, I can't stress the importance of it, and I would say to have just like your portfolio with your money. Have a portfolio, a diversity in your salts. You know? So like the Himalayan, you've got the Celtic salt, you've got the real salt. There's like special Hawaiian black salt. Like there's all these different ones that are going to have different benefits. And this is something that your cells need this. It was given a bad name, mainly because of blood pressure. Drew Manning: Yeah, exactly. Shawn Stevenson: You know? And the thing is, you need it to modulate your blood pressure, but of course, like if you do overdo processed salt, yeah it can elevate your blood pressure. But that's not the only causative factor as well. So it's just like we get these bad pieces of data and it gets ran over in the media. Drew Manning: Yeah, 100%. And your body will let you know if you've had too much salt. It's not like you can't- your body will tell you if you've had too much salt. You know when you've had too much salt. Right? Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. Drew Manning: Not sugar though. Yeah, we don't have that mechanism. Shawn Stevenson: That's so funny, man. That's so true, you know? You'll be thirsty. You'll be more thirsty, first of all, that's one sign. So man, this is so good. I want to talk about some of these myths. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: With the keto diet. And I think you put six in here? Six myths? Drew Manning: Yeah, I think so. Shawn Stevenson: So let's go through a couple of these, again there's six in the book. One of them is that all that fat you're eating. Now you're eating fat. Will clog your arteries, raise your blood pressure- this is another thing that's going to raise your blood pressure, and your heart is going to just basically explode. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: What's up there, man? Is there any truth to it? Drew Manning: Yeah, this is interesting. I remember like hearing you talk about the first time you ate coconut oil. You thought you were literally going to have a heart attack because you were like, "It's going to clog my arteries." I remember when I was on The Dr. Oz Show, we had a little setup of butter- they used butter as fat. And he was like- even doctors. You know? He was like, "I cut open people and I see these fats clogging people's arteries, and it looks like this." And so they think eating fat clogs your arteries and gives you a heart attack. We've been taught that for so long, right? And even doctors will still say, "Hey, stay away from fat." And there might be some instances for some people to be careful of that, but it's not true if you eat fat in the absence of carbohydrates. If you're eating high fat plus high carb, you're going to be in trouble. That's probably where you're going to get some kind of illness. I mean, when I did Fit2Fat2Fit, and I gained seventy-five pounds, you combine pizza, and donuts, and these high carb high fat foods as well, that's where you're going to get into trouble. And that's what the older studies were based off of. They didn't factor in carbohydrates, they just factored in how much fat you were consuming. So they said, "Hey, higher fat diets will cause clogged arteries." But if you eat fat in the absence of carbohydrates, like keto, it's perfectly fine for most people. And so it's just one of these things that we have to overcome mentally because, like salt, we've been taught fat has been bad for us for so long. Shawn Stevenson: One of those things, mixing those together, and the thing is they probably taste the best. Drew Manning: They taste really good. Shawn Stevenson: Is you see an increase in things like advanced glycation end products, right? AGES, like the acronym is literally AGES. And inflammation, and all these things. They just don't really mix well. And also of course, like for the most part, people are doing these processed versions of it. You know, like if you're having some sweet potato with some salmon, you're going to be alright. So yeah man, that's really interesting. Because still it is a fear, it is definitely a fear, but it's really unwarranted. And I was just thinking about when they talk about the, "I see this in the arteries and it looks like butter." Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: But you know, they call it- like it's calcification or plaque. What causes plaque on your teeth? Is it butter? Straight up, like let's think about this for a second. Sugar. Like I don't got to make this up, you know? It's so Captain Obvious, and we know that sugar is this kind of catalyst. And I did an episode, like a master class on this, talking about liver health, and how eating too many carbohydrates - sugar and carbohydrates - can literally get your liver to start of course printing out fat, it's lipogenesis, but starts creating these molecules, these VLDL particles, which are really the culprits. Really big culprits if we're talking about plaque, and heart disease, and damaged arteries. Right? It's not from eating fat, it's from eating carbohydrates. Drew Manning: Yeah. Shawn Stevenson: So yeah, man. Thank you, man. That's one myth that you talked about in the book. Let's talk about this one, man. Because these two things seem to be a little bit synonymous a lot of times, is Atkins. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: So keto is just Atkins repackaged. Drew Manning: Yeah, that's a good one because so many people ask like, "Isn't this just the same thing?" And even Jillian Michaels recently kind of was like, "Oh keto is just Atkins repackaged." Right? And so the interesting thing is Atkins, what it was, was a low carbohydrate diet, and it didn't really factor in how much fat you were eating. The goal wasn't to be in a state of ketosis, it was just to cut out the carbohydrates. Right? And people saw amazing results, but it was more of like a just eat meat, high protein, high fat type of diet. Now that doesn't guarantee that you'll reach a state of ketosis. Right? Some people overconsuming protein can knock them out of ketosis actually. Not everybody, but some people, through a process called gluconeogenesis, and that level of protein is different for each person. So just because you did the Atkins diet doesn't mean you were in a state of ketosis. Or just because you cut out carbohydrates. So keto, the goal with keto, is to be in a ketogenic state where you're burning fat as fuel. And so that's how they're different. It's more of a high fat, moderate protein, low carb approach. And what that does is it mimics fasting, and then that triggers your body to produce ketones as an alternative fuel source. Shawn Stevenson: Yeah and most keto approaches, especially yours, 'Complete Keto,' is also pro-vegetable. Drew Manning: Yes, exactly. Shawn Stevenson: Which is not something that you would think about in relationship to Atkins. And seeing my friends- when I first saw somebody doing Atkins, like I didn't know it was a thing. And this was when I was struggling with my own health, and having the degenerative spinal issues. But I go over to my friend, his name is Floyd - shout-out to Floyd if you're listening - and we were playing Madden, you know, way too much. And I came over one day, he was always kind of just struggling with his weight ever since he was a kid, he was trying to figure something out. And I came over, he's got these two really crappy burger patties, like the frozen- it's from like the box that's like multiple, it's got like the paper over it. And clearly, this cow has never even seen grass before. You know what I'm saying? It's definitely not grass-fed. And the fake Kraft singles, right? Because even on Kraft it says 'cheese product.' There's not enough cheese in it to be called cheese legally. And I'm just like- because I'd never seen a burger without a bun at that point in my life. I'm just like, "Where's your bun?" Right? "Where's your bun?" He was like, "Atkins, bro." And I was like, "Okay, cool." He lost weight. He lost weight, but it didn't end well. You know? Like it all came back around. You know? And I think that if done properly, a lot of these things can work for people, but we have to mind the details. We have to mind the details. And with keto, we've got to mind the details, and that's why I'm so grateful that you put this together. Drew Manning: Yeah, thank you. Shawn Stevenson: So let's hit one more of these myths. Again, you've got six here, but we'll do one more. This myth says it's not safe to do keto long-term. What do we say about that one? Drew Manning: Well, because there's not a ton of long-term studies where we studied people doing the ketogenic diet for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years. But I know doctors personally that have been living a strict ketogenic lifestyle for decades, and totally fine, totally healthy. Because what people need to understand is keto is a natural metabolic state that our bodies were designed to be able to tap into if we ran out of glucose or if we ran out of food, right? And so eating a ketogenic diet, there's not this unhealthy side of it where if you do it for more than X amount of days, you're going to die, your body shuts down. No, you're just fueling your body with a different fuel source. That's all that's happening. And so if you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, if we didn't have keto, we would not be able to survive more than a few days without food. Right? And so it's a totally natural metabolic state to be in, and I think people worry like, "Oh, if you do it for long-term, this and that could happen." But like I said, I know doctors personally who've been doing it for decades. Totally fine, totally healthy. But I think for humans, we were designed to run off of both sources of fuel very efficiently. And so I think optimally being in a state of ketosis, but also dipping in and out from time to time is good for the body. Right? So it's about metabolic flexibility, and being able to be efficient at both fuel sources versus just one or the other. And so for me, I choose to dip in and out of ketosis. I'm not in strict keto 100% of the time. Right? I get keto adapted from time to time for thirty days straight, for example, and then after that I'll do intermittent. I talk about this in my book, an intermittent keto diet where maybe three or four times a year I'm strict keto for thirty days. Shawn Stevenson: We were talking about this life cycle thing. I'm a big fan of that because I think that that's how we evolved, that's what our genes expect us to do. And yeah, and it's another thing that's highlighted in here. Which the book itself is beautiful, the recipes, and the pictures. But this book is a lot more than a typical recipe book. So why is that? What is different about your book that people need to know about? Drew Manning: Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about that. And this is what- there's a ton of diet books, there's a ton of keto books out there. What makes mine different? And that's the word 'Complete Keto,' right? Complete, it's a guide to help people more so on the mental and emotional side. Because here's what I learned. When I did Fit2Fat2Fit, you could give someone the best meal plans, you can give them the best workouts, you can give them the best recipes. You can give them all the science that they need to know of how to transform their physical body, but we've been talking about that for years and decades in the fitness industry, and that's not what people struggle with, in my opinion. It's not lack of knowledge, right? Yes, there's a physical thirty-day program in here with recipes and the science behind the ketogenic diet, and how it works for your body. But transformation is so much more than that, and this is what I learned from Fit2Fat2Fit. Transformation is mental and emotional for people. And that's why I chose to focus on that so much in the book. So I think people were coming to this book for the ketogenic- like the program and to lose fat. But I think they'll soon realize that it's so much more of a mindset shift, and that's what I want to teach people how to do, and that's what I'm trying to do in the fitness industry, is to change the game by bringing empathy, more respect, and a better understanding of what people go through on a psychological level so that we can have a better understanding of what they're going through so that we can better help them. It's not like, "Hey, just eat less and workout. What's wrong with you?" That's been so many people's approaches, and that was my approach as a trainer before, until I did Fit2Fat2Fit, and I realized it's- people struggle on the mental and emotional side. It's overcoming challenges or trauma as a kid, it's that emotional connection to food that we underestimate and we think, "Oh, what's wrong with you? Just put down the soda." But you wouldn't go up to a drug dealer and tell them, "Hey, stop doing drugs. What's wrong with you?" Because we know it's a serious addiction. Same thing with food addiction, and this is where my eyes have been opened over the past few years of doing Fit2Fat2Fit on the mental and emotional side of transformation, but also on the personal development side. And that's why I talked about this on our last podcast. Going through a divorce really forced me to find a way to own my story, and embrace vulnerabilities so that I could be whole, for the first time in my life. And so all those personal development things that I learned from books by Brene Brown and working with a life coach I've tied in to the 'Complete Keto' because helping people with physical transformation, we've done that before. Right? Helping people get skinny, yes it makes them happy to a certain degree. But we realize that's not the ultimate source of happiness, otherwise everyone that was skinny and had a six-pack would be happy. Right? And there's so much more to happiness and fulfillment than just that. So if I could help people with the complete transformation on the mental and emotional and spiritual side while they're working on a physical transformation, then people learn how to love themselves where they're at now, while they're working on the best version of themselves, and that's what I intend to do with 'Complete Keto,' and that's why no one else is really talking about the mental and emotional side. You know? It's overlooked in this industry. Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, not anymore. It's here, man. And you did a wonderful job, and I'm super happy for you because I think this is a big next step for you in your impact that you're making in people's lives, and marrying these two together, getting some great advice and a template on the nutrition side, but also that mental and emotional support. So man, just appreciate you so much for putting it together. Can you let everybody know where they can pick up the book and where they can connect with you online? Drew Manning: Yeah, so 'Complete Keto' is available at all the major retailers; Barnes and Noble, Amazon. You can go to my website, and we're giving away a ton of free stuff to help you on your journey - downloads, PDFs - so that it's not just about the book. It's more than that. And we're creating an online support team for you through a private Facebook group. So go to to order the book and learn more about those things that I was talking about. And then if you want to follow me on social media, I think I'm pretty entertaining, but it just depends. That's @Fit2Fat2Fit with the number two. Shawn Stevenson: Perfect, man. Thank you so much, bro. Drew Manning: Thanks, Shawn. Shawn Stevenson: This has been amazing, man. So good, and I'm always just grateful to see you and to hang out. We're about to go get some food. Drew Manning: Yes. Shawn Stevenson: Obviously it's going to be keto. Drew Manning: It's going to be keto. Shawn Stevenson: But it's going to be delicious. Drew Manning: If it's not keto, we're not taking pictures of it, so it didn't happen. Shawn Stevenson: If it's not posted, it didn't happen. Awesome, man. So again, thank you so much for coming to hang out. Appreciate you. Drew Manning: Appreciate you, man. You're awesome. Shawn Stevenson: Everybody, thank you so much for tuning into the show today. I hope you got a lot of value out of this episode. Man, so many huge insights here, and I love the way that we closed this episode in talking about it's not about the nutrition approach. That is definitely a piece of it, but what's really going to get us there and create a sustainable lifestyle where we're healthy and happy long-term, we need to have a transformation with our psyche, with our mental and emotional well-being. And just running up to somebody and telling them, "Just stop eating the cookies, just put it down." Arnold was like, "Put the cookie down." Right? You can't just do that. Like that's not going to work for the vast majority of people, and as he mentioned, like coming up to a drug addict and just saying, "Don't do dope." I remember Adam Sandler on, I think it was Billy Madison, he was like, "You booze, you lose, punk. Remember that." You know? He was just like messing with these kids on the playground. You can't do that to get people to change. You know? It's more getting connected, and being empathetic, and understanding, and seeing things from people's perspective. And Drew is somebody who's really seeking to do that, and we can take a note from him on that, and employing that in our own lives. And also, taking that and not just for ourselves but also for the people that we care about. So really excited about this, 'Complete Keto.' If you're listening to this, it'll still be pre-order available, but if you're listening to this a couple of days after this comes out, it will be available to go grab at your local bookstore. Go pre-order the book, first of all, because it's probably going to sell out, to be honest. Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Is Books-A-Million around still? There's different bookstores out there, but definitely support your local bookstores if you can, go and grab a physical copy. And I think you're just going to really enjoy the book. Just the writing style is so digestible, the food is digestible, and it's just a really great tool for us to have access to. It's not over-complicating things, because it doesn't need to be over-complicated. This is something we should all know about because it's a tool that as a human being, this is something that your genes have a great affiliation towards. And it's something that we all need to know about and have access to, should we desire to use it and/or need it. And I appreciate you so much for tuning into the show today. If you got a lot of value out of this, please share it out with your friends and family on social media. Tag me and tag Drew, let everybody know what you thought of the episode. Let Drew know what you thought about the episode, and I appreciate that so very much. So much good stuff coming up for you, alright? I don't think you really understand, we are not playing games. So many incredible show topics that are very, very much needed to talk about, and also incredible guests that are coming for you very, very soon, so be ready. Take care, have an amazing day, and I'll talk with you soon. And for more after the show, make sure to head over to That's where you can find all of the show notes, you can find transcriptions, videos for each episode, and if you've got a comment you can leave me a comment there as well. And please make sure to head over to iTunes and leave us a rating to let everybody know that the show is awesome, and I appreciate that so much. And take care, I promise to keep giving you more powerful, empowering, great content to help you transform your life. Thanks for tuning in.

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