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TMHS 769: The Surprising Truth About Menopause & Lifestyle Changes for Menopause Symptoms – with Dr. Lisa Mosconi

TMHS 483: Overcome Fear & Develop A Winning Mindset – With Guest Tim Grover

“Winning takes precedence over all. There’s no gray area. No almosts.” – Kobe Bryant 

What does it take to be the best? It doesn’t matter if the topic is fitness, relationships, or entrepreneurship; winning is a mindset, and there are no shortcuts to success. Today, we have the opportunity to learn from someone who has been instrumental in the success of countless winners.

Tim Grover has worked as an elite performance coach alongside Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Dwayne Wade, to name a few. On this episode of The Model Health Show, Tim is here to discuss powerful insights and principles from his new book, W1nning. You’re going to hear Tim’s experiences working with elite champions and lessons he’s learned about achieving excellence. 

I hope this episode serves as an important reminder of how to put in the work and reach your goals. Tim’s honest and proven tips can help you succeed in any and every area of your life. So listen in, take good notes, and enjoy this episode with Tim Grover! 


In this episode you’ll discover:

  • How taking care of yourself while you’re chasing your goals makes you a winner.
  • What it means to constantly be practicing and staying ready.
  • Why there are an infinite, ever-changing number of steps to success.
  • How winning is similar to improving your physical appearance. 
  • The importance of building a strong foundation of habits.
  • Why it isn’t normal to win.
  • How winning can create distance and strain relationships. 
  • An important distinction between fear and doubt.
  • Why winning has no loyalty. 
  • The difference between having a healthy ego and an unhealthy ego. 
  • Why it’s not always a bad thing to be selfish.
  • The link between feedback and criticism.
  • Why motivation is not enough to help you reach your goals.
  • The problem with grinding, and how to reframe the way you think. 
  • How striving toward winning wages a war in your mind.
  • Why winning is a sprint with no finish line. 

Thank you so much for checking out this episode of The Model Health Show. If you haven’t done so already, please take a minute and leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple Podcast by clicking on the link below. It will help us to keep delivering life-changing information for you every week!


SHAWN STEVENSON: Welcome to the Model Health Show. This is fitness nutrition expert, Shawn Stevenson, and I'm so grateful for you tuning in with me today. Right now we can use some more victories, we can use more winning, we're due for some winning, and today we have the opportunity to learn from somebody who's been instrumental in the victories of so many of the most successful people that we really aspire towards in our world today, in our culture, and this episode is extremely powerful. It is one that you're going to want to listen to over and over again. And my guest... I'm going to kick this off with a quote from six-time NBA Finals MVP and six-time NBA Champion, Michael Jordan, about today's guest. Michael Jordan said, "Tim Grover was by my side for 15 years, and knows more than anyone about building winners." I've got Jordans on right now, on my feet. Iconic, not just the domain of basketball, but transitioning that and integrating in the culture, and Tim was right there, helping Michael Jordan to take his game to another level.


So, having the opportunity to learn from folks like that who have these kind of insights is just such a gift that prior to this age of having this medium available to us, you had to be in the situation... You had to be in the room to be able to hear his insights, to be able to hear from experts like Tim Grover, but we have this today, and all it is is a matter of what you do with it when you hear it. So really, really pumped about this episode, and Tim being somebody who really came into the game as a world class elite trainer and understanding how important it is for sports performance, we've got to keep in mind still right now, we're living in a time where... We're not even talking about elite performance for most folks, we're just trying to get people to a level of health, we're just working to get people to a level of advancing from chronic disease where it is today in our society, it is the norm. Right now here in the United States, and I'm going to continue to share these statistics, 242 million of our citizens here in the United States are overweight or obese.


Clinically obese or overweight, right now, 242 million. It's staggering, it's staggering. 60% of our citizens have some form of heart disease right now, we're ticking time bombs. 115 million of our citizens are regularly sleep-deprived, 130 million of our citizens have type 2 diabetes or pre-diabetes right now, not to mention the epidemics of autoimmune conditions, thyroid disorders, the epidemic conditions of Alzheimer's and dementia, and the list goes on and on and on, and obviously infectious diseases are on the tip of everyone's tongue right now, hopefully it's not on your tongue, but it's really... It's top of mind for us. And the number one susceptibility to infectious diseases is our existing state of health, the number one susceptibility is pre-existing chronic diseases, with the most recent CDC report stating that not 94, now it's jumped up to 95% of the people who've lost their lives in association with SARS-CoV-2 on their death certificate, 95% of them had an average of four pre-existing chronic diseases and/or comorbidities. We've got to do better. We've got to take better care of ourselves, take better care of our families, our communities, but please understand, and you'll learn this more today, it starts with us.


It really starts with us. So right now, we are trying to create an epidemic of health, we're trying to create an epidemic of empowerment, we're trying to create an epidemic of change, real transformation. And so really grateful for you being a part of this mission, a part of this conversation. And we're just getting started. We're just getting warmed up. There's a lot of work to be done, but there are so many good things happening, and leaning back into Tim's experience, again, working in the gym, training elite athletes, his roster of people that he's trained includes Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Scottie Pippen. The list goes on and on. Charles Barkley, the list goes on and on, but that performance in the gym, what can we do to get a little bit of an edge with our nutrition, for example. Obviously food first is the number one tenet, but in the gym, specifically with sports performance, my tenet, not just food first, but food-based supplementation, Earth-grown nutrients, if we're wanting to get that additional 2%, 5% edge, because I say that because a lot of folks think that supplementation is a thing that carries the weight when it's just percentages difference.


The bulk of it, 90% plus is our overall nutrition with real food, our sleep hygiene, our stress management practices, those are the things that really create the foundation, then we bring in the supplementation, it's supposed to supplement an already powerful protocol. But with that, there is one that really stands out above the rest, and it was the subject of a double-blind placebo-controlled 12-week clinical trial performed at Florida State University with healthy test subjects utilizing Shroom TECH Sport. And Shroom TECH Sport is a formula that's based on Earth-grown nutrients, including cordyceps medicinal mushroom, that has centuries of documented use, but here's how it performed in this clinical trial, so it's cordyceps combined with a green tea extract, methylcobalamin, so Earth-grown source of B-12. And in this formula... Again this is a placebo-controlled... Double-blind placebo-controlled trial gold standard of clinical testing, here's what happened. The test subjects implementing Shroom TECH Sport had an increase in their bench press reps of 12% increase versus the people who were taking a placebo. Versus a placebo, folks taking Shroom TECH Sport had an increase in combined bench press and back squat reps, 7% with the super sets, greater performance, greater increase than folks taking a placebo and their increase in cardiovascular performance shot up versus a placebo by 9%.


So, does it work? It absolutely works. So if we're talking about performance, if we're talking about getting that extra edge as a pre-workout without any weird stimulation where you feel like your ears are going to light on fire or you feel like you might get arrested, like there's supplements out there, these crazy pre-workouts that have these crazy names because that's what they are, they're absolutely... They're crazy, there's nuts, the stuff that people put in their bodies, but there's things like total war, ultimate fire, death trap, bear claw, bear trap, all these crazy different things, these crazy supplements with all these synthetic ingredients, and what we really, again, looking for what are the things that are clinically proven, number one, but also having the efficacy, long-term use without any crazy side effects, just things getting better. So as a pre-workout or even pre-life, Shroom TECH Sport really stands in the league of its own. Check it out at that's Again, that's, you also get 10% off the Shroom TECH Sport and also their incredible Earth Grown nutrient formulas, whether it's a recovery protein, whether it's their incredible Alpha BRAIN: Nootropic, just amazing, amazing integrity, and they're doing stuff the right way., now, let's get to the Apple Podcast review of the week.


ITUNES REVIEW: Another five-star review titled “can't get enough” by h2o chica. "I have to give huge props to Shawn. Not only does he provide incredible information in a way that is easy to digest, his voice is so calming, I honestly can't stop listening to this podcast, and I tell everyone this will truly change their life for the better."


SHAWN STEVENSON: Awesome, thank you so much for leaving me that review over on Apple Podcast, it means so very much, and if you got to do so, please jump over to Apple Podcast, leave a review for the Model Health Show. I really, really do appreciate it. And on that note, let's get to our special guest and topic of the day. Tim Grover is the CEO of Attack Athletics, world-renowned for his work with Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, and hundreds of other sports and business professionals, and he is the pre-eminent authority on the science and art of physical and mental dominance. He's the author of the international best-selling book, Relentless: From Good to Great to Unstoppable, and the author of the new book, Winning: The Unforgiving Race to Greatness. So let's jump into this conversation with the one and only Tim Grover. We've legitimately got a living legend here with us today on the Model Health Show. Tim, so good to see you.


TIM GROVER: Pleasure brother, how are you man? Great to see you.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Good to see you man.


TIM GROVER: Thank you so much.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Oh, my pleasure. Any time. Any time.


TIM GROVER: Thank you. I know how busy you are. I'm honored to do this show man. I really am, 'cause I know...




TIM GROVER: You're selective.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Oh yeah, very much.


TIM GROVER: You're selective, so, as great it is for you to have me here, it's even a bigger honor for me, being part of this. Thank you.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you, Tim. Thank you. The honor's all mine. We are all so excited to have you. We've actually got an audience here, we usually don't have an audience. My son is in the building, and timing is an ingredient for a lot of things.


TIM GROVER: Yes, it is.


SHAWN STEVENSON: And what is it about this time right now, why did you decide at this time to get out and really talk about your insights on winning?


TIM GROVER: You know why I did that, Shawn? A lot of people forgot what a win looks like, they forgot what it feels like, they don't know if they're going to get another win in their life. And this was like, Hey listen, you have a chance to win every single day. There's a win out there every single day. It's not going to acknowledge you, you got to go acknowledge it, you got to go get it. And people forgot how to chase that win, they forgot how to get into that race, and the feeling that winning gives each individual. And with everything that was going on, that's still going on right now, what's the one thing you always talk about more than anything else? The person's health. You can't chase that win without that ingredient, and when you preach to us all the time, how many people have you seen that sacrifice their health when they're chasing that win, when they're going after that... Or even when they've gotten a win, and then how quickly it goes away.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Then they spend so much of their time and energy trying to get their health back. I love that.


TIM GROVER: And you can win doing both, you can win at multiple things. Just think if you take... The better you take care of yourself physically and mentally, the more energy you'll have, not only for yourself, but for everybody else around. The way you set an example, the way everybody sets an example during the most difficult times when you adjust, you pivot, you adapt, you overcome. And that's the same thing, listen, we all had every single excuse, and many people took those excuses and they held on to them as though they were their wins to let their health go, to let their mindset get weak, to use everything that's going on as an excuse, and then people like yourself who saw these times, who put out the information actually made transformations in these individuals. They actually had a chance, "Wow, this is a chance for me to really win at myself." It was a first opportunity if you looked at it the right way, "I actually have a chance to win at myself, break out of all the routines that were bad for me," and those people that won during this time, that continue to win, they adapted and they won.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Absolutely, there's really these kind of parallel realities for folks when everything kind of went down, some folks did relent to give up, they just put themselves to the side and their health spiraled downwards, where there's other people took the opportunity to get in the best shape of their lives. But regardless of what people have done previously... And this is why I'm so grateful to have you here. It's like, now we can train ourselves to be ready for the next imminent event, there's always going to be something.


TIM GROVER: Always, guaranteed. We don't know what it is, but there's always going to be something, but it's just once you just... We spoke about before we got this show on, you got to be ready before that thing happens, too many people get that... When that event happens, then they try to do... And it's too late, because you don't know what's going to be taken away from you. You have a chance, just like there's a win every single day, you have a chance to see those obstacles, you have a chance to see those... Understand those steps. Those are your wins, those are your wins to be able to adjust to anything that's going to come at you. It's like all my clients used to say, "I practice so hard so the games are easy." So if you're constantly practicing every single day, when the next thing comes, it'll be easier, it's not going to be easy, but it'll be much easier to handle than other people who haven't practiced.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. If anybody knows about that it's you. This is real. This is real. So really staying ready, so you don't have to get ready.


TIM GROVER: Yeah, exactly. That's the simplest way to put it. That's the simplest way to put it. You can fine-tune, but if you're always... If you're not ready, you're in trouble.


SHAWN STEVENSON: You know what I really love about you Tim is that you don't sugar-coat things, there's no sunshine and rainbows. There's no... You make it clear that success and winning is within us, it is possible for us, but you also make it clear that most people are not going to do what's necessary.


TIM GROVER: They are not going to do what's necessary.


SHAWN STEVENSON: And so what, for you, enabled you to communicate this so bluntly and so honestly about how difficult winning really is.


TIM GROVER: Well, you know what, it's just what you said, everybody looks at the 30 seconds when a champion is standing on getting their medal, whatever it may be, and everybody sees what you said, they see the sprinkles, they see the rainbows, they see the confetti. But what they don't understand what it took to get to that... What it took to get to that 30 seconds, what it took... Everybody looks at, "Oh, oh, Shawn you're so healthy," but they don't understand the years and years it took for you to get this healthy and how it's a struggle. As fine-tuned as you are, there are still temptations out there, there are still temptations out there and being able to practice, to not to give into those temptations. And the reason I came up with this book and I wanted not to sugar-coat it because people make winning and success as though it's so easy and it's not. You see all these people that write these books that say "Five Steps to Greatness" or "10 Steps to Weight Loss" or whatever it would be... Boy do we wish it was that easy. Boy do I wish it was that easy. Now, I work out enough and I don't care what shape I'm in, if you told me right now to go run up and down those flights of stairs, It's difficult.


So when people always say these steps, these steps, these steps, you got to understand, there are no five steps, there are no 10 steps, those steps are infinite and they're constantly changing, they're constantly shifting. You don't know if that step is going to be there, you don't know if it's a right step, you don't know if it's a wrong step, you don't know if it's going to shift on you, you don't know if you're going to step in some quicksand and then you may climb all the way to the top and find out that's actually your beginning. That's your beginning. You haven't even started the climb, you're just like... The first infinite steps were just a test to see, Hey, are you worthy to be in this race of winning? But people want the easiest way out and... Listen, we're in a life where convenience sells. Quick. Quick, 'cause everybody wants it now. And we have that instant gratification. They want that dopamine hit, they want everything now, that's why health is so difficult for individuals because you can't see the results now. Just like your health, your body changes from the inside, it changes from the inside and then your results are on the outside.


Same thing with winning, the changes start from within, and then winning will notice you on the outside, but everybody wants the other way around, they want the fast cars, they want the watches, they want the shine, they want the shiny stuff, they want all the stuff that you see on IG all the time, but nobody talks about what it takes to get those things consistently. Everybody wants to be in great shape, they want to be healthy, they want to live a healthy lifestyle. And you and I, being in the fitness business, how many times you get individuals that say this, "I'll do anything," but their definition of anything and your definition of anything...


SHAWN STEVENSON: Very different. Very different.


TIM GROVER: It's totally... Like you're not even reading the same book and then you tell them, "Hey, this is what my definition of everything," and they'll be like, "I'm not going to do that." That's what this book is about. These are the things that the best of the best that I've known, that I've worked with, that I've spoken to, that I've seen, not only in sports, but in corporate America, CEOs, this is their language of winning.


SHAWN STEVENSON: When you said that, people's definition being different, I thought about when I was in my clinical practice and people would come in and they're like, "I've tried everything to achieve," fill in the blank, and then when I actually... And they're dead serious, "I've tried everything," and when I actually get them to detail how many things that they've tried, it's like three or four things, it's like... For me, I really do believe, there's a statement that where there's a will there's a way, where there's a will, there's 10,000 ways, there's 100,000 ways. And so what we tend to do is we fall into this place of learned helplessness very quickly. And our culture, like you said, it's so driven by this brain candy and this immediacy, and folks, I don't think often realize how hard we have to work behind the scenes, to tell the truth, even with Eat Smarter, the publisher, agents, they're all trying to get you to fit into these cookie cutter boxes, "Give people those five things."


TIM GROVER: Because that's what sells. They're not concerned about... They're like, "This is what sells. Everybody's looking for the quick fix." Are you going to be that type of individual that's going to say, "Hey listen, I'm willing to turn in my identity for that quick fix," and most... A lot of people are. I'm not.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, that's why I really resonate with you so much, because what the mission was, of course, is to get people educated on what's real. And what's real is not always easy, especially when we are talking about each and every one of us having so much individuality and uniqueness and different DNA, and the list goes on and on. We really need to learn about principles, principles of health, principles of success, but understand that everything is fluid and flexible, and if you don't have the principles dialed in and blank happens, pandemic happens, car breakdown happens, everything gets abandoned, whereas, if you were really versed on these principles, no matter what happens, you can adjust.


TIM GROVER: So when I trained all my athletes, the first thing we always concentrated on, "Let's build the strongest foundation." You could have the most beautiful house there is, alright? You could have all the nice stuff, you could have all this stuff, you could have all these things going on in here, the best-looking furniture, all the crystal, the diamonds, and all that other stuff, if that foundation isn't built, then what are your principles built on? Your principles... Your foundation isn't built on your principles. That's it. Those things have to be rock solid.


That's why in both of my books, when I listed my 13 traits, I always list them as number one. I list all 13 as number one. You have to decide how you want to put them. Now, they're as equally as important. They're as equally as important. You can't say, "Hey, I'm only going to do this one." It's just like people would be like, you give them a health plan and says, "Well, I only want to do this Monday through Friday. I don't want to do this on Saturday and Sunday." That's not a foundation. That's not a principle. They're all equally as important. You decide what order you want to put them in, that's unique to you, what you said in the individuality of that individual. What principles one person has, somebody else's principles may be different, no one's right, no one's wrong, but those have to be your principles, and most of them have to be non-negotiable.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. One of the most powerful sentences in the entire book, and I've got it right here, Winning, the new book out... When this is coming out, it's just released, so make sure to pick up a copy. But one of the most powerful sentences in the entire book for me is when you said, "There is nothing normal about winning."


TIM GROVER: Absolutely nothing.


SHAWN STEVENSON: I had to put the book down and sit there for a second because you said something that's just in my awareness, but I never put words to it. Can you talk about that?


TIM GROVER: Think about it, there is nothing... Any winner that you know, that success we won over and over and over again, are they really normal? They're all a little off. [laughter] They're all a little... So when everybody says, "Man, he or she is crazy. They're a little bit off, I don't understand the way they think." Everybody thinks that's a bad thing. That's a pre-requisite to winning. So when people call me crazy, I'm like, I always say, "Thank you very much," because you know what crazy means? That means I have the ability to see things that other people don't. Everybody that's done something extraordinary in the world, whether they've changed the world, whether they've come up with a new educational principle, whatever it may be, architecture or so forth, somebody said, "Man, that idea is crazy." I said, "This dude is like... This dude is... This girl is like, yeah, they don't know what they're talking about." This world is built on crazy.


How many people told you when you were just like, "Hey, I'm going to do this show on health and wellness, and tell the truth about it" and people are like, "Why you want to do that? No one is going to listen to you. You got to be crazy to do that." They couldn't see. They couldn't see. Actually, let me change that. They did see, they didn't have your vision. There's a huge difference. And everybody that's a little crazy... When you talk about winning isn't normal, winning is not normal, you have to be a little bit off. I always say this, and I also have this in the book, "Winning makes you different, and different scares people." It really, really does. It really does.


It's easy to fit in, it's easy to look at everybody and fit in that pack and so forth, but once you start to win, in whatever you want to win, you want to win at your health, you want to win at your business, you want to win at your raising your kids, it makes you different, and people are scared of different. They're like, "Well, why are you raising your kids that way? Why are you only eating this? Why are you only doing that? What are you doing? Your son, why does he need all that muscle?" Alright? Different scares people. But your definition of winning, my definition of winning, his definition of winning is different. It is different. There's nothing normal about winning.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. That is so powerful. I got to share, I've never shared this before, but when you mentioned that example of me saying, "I'm going to have the top health podcast in the country," the person who said that I was crazy, which she didn't tell me till two years ago, was my wife. She was... I would tell her this, I was like, "Baby, it's going to be the most powerful health podcast. We're going to be the number one health podcast in the country." And she is thinking, "You live in Ferguson, Missouri. You have a little nutritionist consultation practice, and we live in Missouri, like this is not the health hub of the world in the United States." And so I'm speaking these things because I see it, I really see it. It's imminent, and I'm walking in that direction. But this is another thing, too, I'm not just talking about it, I'm moving towards it. I'm proactively attacking it. And once it started to come to fruition, some people, they jump on board later on, and sometimes with that you not see me normal, it's going to be to the people closest to you.




SHAWN STEVENSON: So talk about that a little bit.


TIM GROVER: Well, you have individuals that are supposedly close to you but that don't have the same vision that you have, that don't understand winning. 'Cause what happens? Winning creates distance. When you win, the idea is you're creating distance, you're creating distance from the pack. Where are most people comfortable? In the pack. They're comfortable in the pack. So what happens is your friends or your family that don't... I won't say support you, 'cause a lot of them do support you, a lot of them don't support you, but you have to know the difference between this. And this is going to be very important for you, young man, it's going to be extremely important for you. Alright?


SHAWN STEVENSON: To my son, Jorden.


TIM GROVER: Jordan, this is going to be extremely important. Okay? Are people clapping for you because they're happy for you, or because they have to? Alright? That's going to be extremely important when you move forward in your career, 'cause most people are clapping because they have to. Those aren't the winners. The ones that clap because they want to are the winners. They understand, they respect what you went through, those are the people that will support you no matter what is going to happen. It's the same thing in your quest to be the number one, to reach this path. All the people that jumped on board afterwards, they clap for you because they had to. Very few people clap before because they wanted to and it was genuine.


SHAWN STEVENSON: That's powerful. That's powerful. That needs to marinate for a minute. That's powerful. I hope everybody really gets that, that's powerful.


TIM GROVER: Yeah. Most people in life, they're not... They're participating. They're participating. They're participating in somebody else's life or their own life, so they're going... Somebody else tell them, "Listen, you got to... " They see the people that really enjoy your success, that really enjoy your wins, they see you, they see those people clapping for you. It's just like when you give a great performance and people stand up. Not everybody stands up. They see one person... The people that genuinely like, "Wow," they stand up, they give... Then everybody, "Well, if they're doing it, I must have... I got to do the same thing." Winning doesn't want you to follow, it wants you to lead. It wants you to lead.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. So, I think a big component of why folks... Like you just said, it's not normal, it scares people. It brings up that F word, fear...


TIM GROVER: It does bring up fear.


SHAWN STEVENSON: S1: And we've got to talk about this. Especially we have a certain template based on, again, how we're raised, our experiences, our mindset, our sense of empowerment. So for my wife, for example, it's a subconscious or an unconscious feeling of, again, "You're going to leave the pack. You're going to stretch us. What if you are number one, what kind of attention does that bring? How does that change the dynamics? There's so many uncertain things." But within that... And I want to talk about this, if we're talking about in the concept of folks who are winners, winning at... And there's many different definitions of what that is, but I want to ask you this, because I think that we might think that the person who's doing the thing, who's out there working towards their victory doesn't have fear. But that's not case, is it?


TIM GROVER: That is not the case at all. They have more fear than anybody else. And I talk about this book... I talk about this in Winning also. I've talked to every person I've ever coached, from the business to the athletes, whoever it is. I said, "Do you have fear?" "I have fear all the time."" They have fear all the time. Now, does that fear freezes you in one spot? Does it paralyze you? Or does that fear propel you forward? That's how you have to look at it. So this is what they do. They all have fear, but they don't have doubt. There's a huge difference between fear and doubt. Fear is instinctive. Fear is instinctive. Alright? That's something that's telling you... Hey, listen, if you don't have fear, whatever you're chasing, whatever your win is, whatever race you're in, it's not big enough. It's not big enough. So we all... Fear is instinctive. Alright?


Doubt is something we bring on ourselves, and a lot of times the doubt we bring on ourselves is manifested through what other people tell us, through their thoughts, through their ideas, which we start to believe. And the people that win take other people's doubts, and they use them for energy, they don't hold on to them. It's just like a workout. It's like an empty calorie. It's like an empty calorie. It serves no purpose. You got to burn it off, you use it for fuel, and get rid of it. So everybody's going to have fear. You're supposed to have fear, but you cannot have any doubt that this is going to do it. I'd rather have you fail at something and say, "I went after it," than be frozen by doubt and never given that... And never go after that opportunity.


And that's what most people do from a health standpoint. Yeah, when you give them a nutrition plan, when you tell them, "These are the things that you have to do," there's some fear in you. There's some, "Wow, I got to give up this. I got to do this, I got it here. My sleeping habit's here. This is what's going to happen from a physical standpoint, mental." And you're like, "Man, can I do all this? Can I do all this? Can I do all this?" But the ones that have been like, "You know what... " Just like you said, when your podcast's sitting in Missouri, you had no doubt. You had no doubt, "So we're going to do this." And that's what you did.


So, things that people think are negative... The greatest athletes in the world have the fear. They have the fear. Michael Jordan used to tell me all the time, "Every time I get out on the basketball court, yeah, there's a little bit of... There's a fear of me not playing at my highest level, but I have no doubt on what the outcome is going to be." He always says, he goes, "I never lost a game in my life, I just ran out of time."


SHAWN STEVENSON: Come on. And also it's because no one is entitled to winning.


TIM GROVER: Winning has no loyalty to you, it has no loyalty to me, it has no loyalty to anybody else. In the book, I say this, "You can hold on to winning briefly." Because once you hold on to it, it's already moving on to the next individual, it's always looking for the next person to conquer, it's always looking for its next individual. That's why a lot of people can't win over and over again. You could have easily said, "Yeah, I had the number one podcast."




TIM GROVER: But in order to have...


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's a fight.


TIM GROVER: Every single day. Winning has no loyalty. You can say, "Listen, if we can launch this thing... " And you look at your rankings, now you're at number three. It has no loyalty to any of us, and it's not supposed to. It's not supposed to, 'cause it wants you to fight, it wants you to fight for it. It wants you to acknowledge it. It wants to acknowledge you. It wants to invite you to the celebration, but you got to earn the right to get to that celebration.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. When you... You asked the question in the book, you said that... You asked this to your top athletes, you asked this to lots of folks, to define winning in one word. And when you asked that question, I put the book down, and I thought about it. And the first thing that popped up for me is "fight". And then I was like, "Why that word, Shawn?" Because, for me, real talk, I'm more gentle than you.


TIM GROVER: Yes. No, you're right.


SHAWN STEVENSON: You grab people by the jugular. So I was just, like, "Fight"? But that's what I felt, that, it is, that's the thread that I exist by it, with the movement, with my mission. It's a fight.


TIM GROVER: Yes. It's a fight to change lives. It's a constant fight to change lives. You're not talking about, "Listen, I got to get into a fisticuff with somebody, or I got to get in a physical altercation." No. It's a fight...


SHAWN STEVENSON: Me and Ronald McDonald.


TIM GROVER: Yes. It's a fight to change lives. So when I asked the question to those individuals, I said, "Well, give me what your definition of winning was." Everybody was... Think it's always going to be glorious, and it's happiness, and all this other stuff. These were the answers that came up most. It's nasty. It's hard. It's unpolished. It's unapologetic. And then Colby came up and said, "It's everything." It's everything.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Everything. That's big. That's big.


TIM GROVER: Now, think about that. How do you feel when you win? It's a feeling you can't describe. Alright? How do you feel when Jordan wins?


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's everything.


TIM GROVER: It's everything. How do you feel when your wife wins?


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's everything.


TIM GROVER: When your closest family members win?


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's everything.


TIM GROVER: When all the individuals that you help out?


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's everything. Yeah.


TIM GROVER: It's a feeling only winning can give you. It's a feeling only winning can give you. And once you feel that feeling, you need to feel it again and again and again.


SHAWN STEVENSON: 'Cause it's not permanent.


TIM GROVER: It is not...


SHAWN STEVENSON: And you really brought that right front and center in this book.


TIM GROVER: Yes. There is nothing... And that's one of the things... People think once they get to winning or once they've won once, that they are a winner. Just in my previous book, Relentless, I broke people down into three categories: Coolers, closers, and cleaners. I'm not going to discuss that, you guys can read the book on that one. But on this one, I have a different... I had a different... And this wasn't in the book, but I came up with it, I came up with it afterwards, and I said, "Well, let's look at people... " I look at people three ways from a winning aspect. There's people that compete. Everybody knows how to compete, we all know how to compete. And those individuals, they just want to finish something, they just... They want to compete just to finish. You'd be like, "Hey, okay, this program... I'm going to put you on a nutrition program. It's supposed to be a lifestyle program." But they just say, "You know what? Give me 12 weeks." So they put you on a 12-week program... You put them on a 12... They get unbelievable results, and like, "I finished this." And they go back to whatever they're doing.


Then you have the individuals that win, but only one time. They only win once because that unforgiving race that it took to get that win, they're like, "I can't do this again. I can't do this. I have that one win." And you know those individuals. How old are you, Shawn?




TIM GROVER: Forty-one. You ever talk to anybody from high school still?




TIM GROVER: Neither do I. They don't even invite me. I'm like banned from the reunion list, like I'm the person that doesn't get the invite, doesn't get the calls, any of that stuff. But we all know those individuals that tell you about their wins back in high school, 'cause they won that one time. And then you have individuals that win at winning. They win at winning. They're the ones that win over and over. And it doesn't always have to be in a sport. It's in raising their kids. It's in a charity work. It could be in whatever it be. It could be that school teacher that every single year no student is left behind, every single year. It's those people that know how to win over and over and over again. Because if you constantly win over and over again, think about all the different lives you're going to impact, all the people that you set examples for, not just in your athletic endeavor, but in life in general.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Winning at winning.


TIM GROVER: Win at winning.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Man, that blew my mind. That's powerful. This experience over the last year plus now, a lot of folks were looking for an outlet, they were looking for something to remind them of what's possible. But folks that win, it's just kind of... It's there already. It's already there. But people were demanding for The Last Dance to get released.


TIM GROVER: They sure were.


SHAWN STEVENSON: The ESPN special, and it was amazing. And so they released it earlier, the public groundswell of demand came out, and my son and I, we watched some of the segments together, but I watched all of them. And I saw you pop up there. I was like, "That's my guy. That's my guy." And you were sharing some of the juiciest, best stories. Because we were just with Tom Bilyeu today, I believe, or recently.




SHAWN STEVENSON: And he's got a painting of Jordan's "flu game." And it's a certain story he has in his own mind about it. And Tom's not even a basketball fan for real. But you shared an insight about that story, which is one of the most iconic moments in the history of sports, period. And it was a story where... You tell the story, because we all see it as like they're on the cusp of this championship run yet again, and Jordan runs into this flu, he just caught something, but the story is a little bit different.


TIM GROVER: Yeah. So I'll be the first one, just to get it out there, I ordered the pizza. I did order the pizza, that was me. I made the phone call. It was the only pizza place that was open, I didn't have any other options. There was literally no other rest...


SHAWN STEVENSON: And Jordan requested something to eat.


TIM GROVER: Yes. There was no other restaurant open. Remember, this was in Park City before it was Park City, before it became really Park City. So he goes, "Man, I'm hungry." Room service was closed, everything was closed. We're like, "Okay. He's literally got to play tomorrow," and I'm like, I got to fuel this guy. For people that don't know him, his metabolic rate was extremely fast. So being from the nutrition side, I don't even have to explain that to you how detrimental that could be to an athlete that's got to perform at the highest level the next day. So we're scrambling, we're like, "Alright, listen... " I said... He's the one person I call "boss". I was like, "Boss, this is all I could find." He goes, "Man, order the f'in' pizza." "Alright, I got it." So I ordered the pizza, and people are like, "Why did you put his name on it?"


Listen. I know I'm not the brightest individual in the world, but I know better than to say, "Oh, the pizza put... " "Who's the order for?" "Michael Jordan." No, the pizza was under my name, alright. So they came in, they come in to the desk then they say, "We have a delivery... " Everybody knew where the Bulls were staying during that time. So they come upstairs and why the person at the desk let him upstairs, I don't know, maybe 'cause...


SHAWN STEVENSON: That's suspicious already.


TIM GROVER: Yeah. Well, maybe the room number was on there. They ring the doorbell, I open the door and there's five guys delivering one pizza. I'm like, "Man... " You see them peeking around the corner trying to see who was in there, we got the door just open just enough, I grab the pizza, tip them, and you know how your instincts just tell you, "Man, something isn't right here. Something just isn't right." And there was myself was in the room, a gentleman by the name of George, MJ, and a few of his friends, they were just relaxing. And he was the only one that ate. Nobody else touched the pizza and he had already told us, he goes, "Hey, the rest of you guys, hey, this is all for me."


So he eats the pizza and then about 3:00 in the morning, I get a call in the room and he said, "Hey, man I need you in MJ's room," so I go to MJ's and he's literally curled up in a ball. I'm like, "Oh man, what the hell happened here?" And there was no way it was the flu because he was perfectly fine when I left him like three hours ago. I was like, "Listen, we've all been hit by the flu, but it didn't hit them that... It didn't him that... " Immediately I thought about it, I was like... Checked anybody else. "Is anybody else sick? Did anybody else eat the pizza?" "No."


And then it just became known as the flu game, but MJ, we got him up enough, called a team physician, called the athletic trainers, did everything that we can. Got him to throw up whatever was in there and he just said, "Listen, this win is extremely important to us," he goes, "Just get me on my feet." He goes, "If you get me on my feet, I'll do the rest. I'll do the rest." And that's one of the most iconic games in history that's ever happened. And people do like, you said, Tom says, he calls it the flu game, but it was the first time in The Last Dance that he finally admitted it it was a pizza. When MJ finally came out and said, "Yeah, it was a pizza," I literally jumped out of my chair, I was like, "Yes, yes. Finally he admitted it. He admitted it."


But the thing that I thought was so amazing about that is the one game no one talks about in Utah that describes winning and pressure to a tee is game number six in his last championship run. For the last 42 seconds of the game, they're down three points, 42 seconds left, not a single other Bulls player touched the ball. Not one, not one. He came down, he scored, went back on defense, stole the ball, came down again, scored again. Not one other Bulls player touched the ball. Pressure is a privilege, alright. That means you believe in yourself and somebody else believes in you, and you can't win unless you believe in yourself. You cannot... You cannot win at your health, you cannot win at business, you cannot win as a father, as a mother, as a son, as a daughter if you expect somebody else to believe in you more than you believe in yourself.


I always like to use the guests as an example. When you decided to make this jump way back when, all those people around you did not believe in you. If you didn't believe in yourself, you'd still be sitting in Missouri.


SHAWN STEVENSON: That's a fact. That's a fact.


TIM GROVER: That's fact. And even your wife had courage enough to say, "Hey listen, I didn't believe in you either. I didn't believe in you either." And everybody else is looking for everybody else to believe in them, they want to believe in their dreams, they want them to believe in their wins. They got their own dreams, they got their own wins, it's your job to bring those things to life. It's your work, it's your dedication, it's your sacrifice, it's your language of winning means to you, to get those wins over and over and over again.


SHAWN STEVENSON: We tell our children, for example, that they have so much potential. We use this term with so many people, "You got potential," but then we tend to diminish it because of the lack of belief, and part of it can be, of course, people don't want you to fall, they don't want you to suffer, they don't want you to have to go through what it takes to win and it's kind of that protective mechanism, but you have to rise above all those things. And what the tool is, and this word is another dirty word, could be, but is a healthy sense of self-confidence or it can be termed as an ego. And there's a battle against the ego, but I don't think people really understand the dimension of that. Your ego can be a tool that you utilize to drive you to where you want to be. So can you talk about the difference with confidence, healthy self-confidence, a healthy self-perception ego versus being conceited and arrogant and all these other terms that we have?


TIM GROVER: Listen, if you produce results over and over again, you have a higher level of confidence, and if you have a higher level confidence and your results are measurable... Every individual I know that's produced measurable results has an ego. It's necessary, it's not a bad thing. Now you have those other individuals... That's a healthy ego. You have those other individuals that have never accomplished anything that love to talk, they love to diminish everybody else's success because of their lack of success or they're faking success, they're faking winning. Alright, that's where it's a bad ego. If your results produce, you can define it as confidence, you can define it as ego, but those are the individuals that do this over and over again. It's healthy to have that. It's just like when you talk about egos, I like to also talk about being selfish. Selfish gets a bad rap also. It's not selfish, it's the word it's self that gets a bad wrap. What is wrong with about taking care of yourself? What is wrong by creating time for yourself? If we call it me time, everybody says, "Oh, that's a healthy thing." But if you tell somebody, "Hey, I need an hour to myself," like, "Oh, you're so selfish."


"Okay, why do you have to go and work out every single day?" "Because the more time I take for myself, the more confident I will be, the better my ego will be able to help other individuals. The better I will be able to take care of everybody else around." If everything you did for self was considered selfish, you wouldn't work out, you wouldn't meditate, you wouldn't say no. You would eat what everybody puts in front of you, you wouldn't do the extra things that you need to stay healthy. You need to take, in order to help everybody else, in order to help other people with their wins, in order to let them see success, in order for them to do what they want to do, you got to do it yourself first. You got to do it yourself and there's nothing wrong with taking care of self. Kobe always used to say, "Man, he's so obsessed."


Well, how can you be number one... How can you have that number one health podcast out there if you aren't obsessed, and everybody says obsession is a bad word. Obsession isn't a bad word, it's just how you use that obsession that makes it an advantage or disadvantage. It's how you use your ego and how you place your ego, whether it makes it a bad thing or a good thing. It's all perception on how people think. Like when you move forward in your football career, Jordan, people are going to give you feedback and criticism, it's the exact same thing, it's how you hear it. It's the exact same thing.


SHAWN STEVENSON: With this and that self-confidence versus being arrogant, I think, especially if we're just looking at it in context of team sports, for example, it's also about the team. It's about...


TIM GROVER: It's always about the team, it's always...


SHAWN STEVENSON: So for... With this podcast, it's about the team, it's about the community, the family.


TIM GROVER: It's always about the team. Listen, you can go out and score 60 points and lose every single game, alright. You can do that. That's a bad ego, that's being selfish. We all have the ability to elevate ourselves, the challenge is can you elevate the people around you, can you elevate the team around you, can you elevate all the individuals that are listening to your podcast on a regular? That's the challenge. That's where the wins really, really come in and that's the difference, there it is. You can easily... You can motivate a lot of people. You can motivate a lot of people, but after motivation... Motivation is entry level, it really is. It's like that sugar high you get from eating a sweet, you get this real high and you get this spike, well what happens once you hit that down thing? Alright.


You have to have the ability to elevate. You have to have the ability, 'cause once that motivation wears off, do you still have the ability to elevate? And then what you're doing with all the information that you're putting out, you're elevating the mindset of individuals, that's what you're doing. You're not only motivating them, you're elevating 'cause that's what winning requires you to do. It requires you to elevate your mindset, 'cause there's a lot of individuals that are out there that are motivated, that are motivated, but that's as far as it goes, that's as far as it goes.


People read a new book, they get motivated. New Year's comes around, they get motivated. Well, what happens? If that motivation doesn't turn into elevation where you can light your own internal fire, because winning's going to do everything it can possible to diminish your fire, that's what it's job is. It's to make you... Winning's job is not to see you finish, it's to make you stop. That's winning's job. Winning's job is for you not to win. Let me say that again. Winning's job is not for you to win. That's why it's an unforgiving race, it's going to do everything possible for you not to get there, not only externally, but also internally. It's going to create doubt in your mind, it's going to make you second guess, it's going to turn your closest friends against you. It's going to turn your family members against you, it's going to turn you against you.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Tim, why you got to tell the truth?


TIM GROVER: It's the only way I know how. How do you get the biggest breakthroughs with your clients? When they're honest with themselves. You told the story earlier about the individuals, you said, "I've done everything," they list three things. They're not being honest with yourself. The reason people don't want honesty is because honesty should lead to more action, but what honesty does it lead to more emotions, which leads to less actions and less results. What's the first thing a person asks you in a relationship? Honesty. Until you're honest with them. Until you're... I'm that type of individual that, don't ask me, "Do I look good in this?"


You already know the answer. If you're asking me, what do you want me to validate something that you already know? "No, you don't look good in this. You don't. 'Cause if you did and you had the... You wouldn't have to ask me." And it's funny, people will ask questions they already know the answer for because they don't want you to tell them the truth. When you put a program together for an individual, and you know that... How many pages in that book?


SHAWN STEVENSON: It's about 400.


TIM GROVER: 400 pages, 400 pages of literature, you put a... People would be able to look at it and be like, "Yeah, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll do this part here, I'll do here, I'll do here, I'll do this." And then you finally tell them the truth, "No, you need to do from... You need to do from cover to cover, everything in between," and you tell them the truth and they'll be like, "You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to do that." And that makes a person more emotional and that's what winning wants you to do. It wants to make you more emotional because the more emotional you get, the more likely you're to quit.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, that's powerful. That's why we're lacking that, like you just said, going from cover to cover is going to be able to elevate your mindset so that you don't become dependent upon that motivation. Which motivation is a lot like a nice warm bath and then over time it gets colder and colder and colder, and...


TIM GROVER: That's a great way of putting it. The motivation is to go out and get the book, that's the motivation. The elevation is actually to do what's in the book. That's where the elevation comes in. The motivation is to go out and get the book. Yeah, you go online and you order it from whatever book store, whatever it is. Now you got these 400 pages and you're like, "Ah, I'll read it tomorrow. I'll read it the next day, I won't listen to it today, no." Because the motivation of it... The instant gratification of having it is gone. Now in order to open the cover and read everything and do what's in there, that's where the elevation comes in.


SHAWN STEVENSON: We've got a quick break coming up, we'll be right back. Researchers at Yale University School of Medicine, the researchers found that one of the biggest culprits behind our obesity epidemic is neuro-inflammation. Brain inflammation increases the propensity of obesity and obesity increases the propensity, the likelihood of neuro-inflammation, they go hand-in-hand. So we've got to address this. One of the things that's been proven to help to reduce neuro-inflammation is cited in a study published in PLOS ONE, the Public Library of Science ONE, revealed that the super green algae, spirulina has a potential to one, improve neurogenesis in the brain. So the creation of new brain cells, specifically the hippocampus, is where we get a lot. And the hippocampus is the memory center of the brain, this is kind of important. And two, the study revealed that spirulina is able to directly reduce neuro-inflammation. It's incredible.


It's helping the structural integrity of this master gland, this master organ controlling everything about us. The most complicated object in the known universe is also one of the most fragile, we've got to protect it. This is why for myself and my family, spirulina, chlorella, ashwagandha, all of these powerful foods are put together in the incredible blend at Organifi, and this is a regular staple here in my family for good reason. Spirulina, being one of the highlighted ingredients, not only does it have this benefit for neurogenesis and neuro-inflammation, but also has rare nutrients like phycocyanin, the same thing with chlorella as well. That phycocyanin is one of the few things that can trigger stem cell genesis, the creation of new stem cells, very few things have been found to do that. And them chlorella in the formula as well, and that growth factor, the chlorella growth factor is just remarkable, and also its benefits in helping your body to metabolize and eliminate heavy metals and the list goes on and on, it's incredible.


But the bottom line is this, it tastes good. It tastes good. I've experimented for at least about 15 years with all these different green formulas, different greens, super food blends, many of them is not very good. Okay, many of them, they shall remain nameless, but I've tried them back in the day before tasting good was an option. It was just like, "Just get it in by any means necessary." If you got to do the whole pinch the nose and get it down, whatever. But now, pleasure leads to longevity. Pleasure leads to taking a practice on and embodying it and making it part of your routine, your habits, your daily life. So this is why I appreciate the fact they've created a formula that actually tastes good, all organic, cold processed, so you actually retain and get the nutrients that we're looking for in Organifi. So pop over there, check it out, it's That's and you get 20% off, 20% off their green juice formula, their red juice formula, and also their gold as well. So they've got some incredible blends, all done the right way with integrity, again, organic, low temperature processed, and yummy. Organifi, you got that? Yummy, yummy. and now back to the show.s


The first professional athlete that you worked with was Michael Jordan.




SHAWN STEVENSON: Speaking of elevation, arguably the most dominant athlete in history.


TIM GROVER: So I'm going to stop you right there. So I got to ask a young buck, see you didn't think you was going to be in part of this. He never... Now, you never got really to see... So I already know, Lebron?


Jorden: No, it's Jordan.




SHAWN STEVENSON: I raised him right, Tim. What are you talking about?


TIM GROVER: I see. So I get people, literally, that'll email me or shoot me a DM and say all the stuff on YouTube that they have on him, it's not real.


I'm like, "No, no, no." I said, "You're actually right, it isn't real. It was even better in person. It was even better in person."


SHAWN STEVENSON: They photo shopped him hot.


TIM GROVER: Yeah, yeah.


SHAWN STEVENSON: But, and for me, I think you got to check yourself because you exist in the era that you're in, so I was in the era of Jordan, but I know that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was before, Bill Russell, I know LeBron today. But for me, I take it all in and I look at not just the dominance on the court, like he also changed the culture so much and the fact that he was able to do what he did and to sustain that level of dominance. If he was there, he's just dominating.




SHAWN STEVENSON: And to put so much fear... Like literally other superstars who dominated in their college or whatever the case might be, they really know in their hearts they're not going to win until he's gone kind of thing so just so many different levels to it. And also changing the way the game is played and the list goes on and on. But you're very first, the very first professional athlete that you worked with is Michael Jordan.




SHAWN STEVENSON: The most dominant player in really all sports, arguably. And my question for you, and I really want to know this myself, what are the ingredients that you had within yourself, within Tim Grover that put you in that room, and not only that, not only put you in the room, but enabled you to add so much to him to where he was able to take his game to another level?


TIM GROVER: So this is interesting because I went to... I have a master's degree in Exercise Science. My bachelor's is in Kinesiology. So when I went to school, everything taught me what to think. It all taught me what to think. "This is the way the body works. This is the nutrition plan. Here's the body... This is what's going to happen." I was always an individual that knew how to think. So it wasn't always about what I read... Sometimes, you just know... You're just like, "Okay, this just looks right." This just feels the way it is. And when I started to talk to him... And he gave me a lot of things about like, "Okay... " He said, "This is what I want to do with my body. This is what I want to do... " And I had never met the guy before. And I was telling him no. I said, "No, this is the plan we need to go. Here it is." And I told him, I said, "Listen, I have no... " If you asked me for research, I said, "I have no research on this. I just know this is the right thing to do." And I said, "You got to trust me on this."


I just said, "This is not about how... This is not about what to think. This is about how to think... " He said, "I want to become... " He goes, "I want to become stronger. I want to become a better athlete. I want to be able to dish out punishment." So he goes, "I need to get bigger." I was like, "Well, let's address the injuries that you constantly have all the time." I said, "If we can address the groin injuries, if we can address the hamstrings, if we can address the ankles injuries that persist all the time, and we can alleviate those things, you're automatically going to become a better athlete. You're already going to be able to be more athletic. You're going to be able to run better. You're going to be able to jump higher." And when I started the program with him, what I would do is I would say, "Okay, on this side of the body I want you to do this many reps with this amount of weight." And then on the other side of the body, we're going to do either less reps, or more reps with a different set of weights. And he was like, "I thought we were supposed to have equal weights on the side."


Well, I said, "Michael, through all the years, that I've been watching you're left side dominant. This is the side that you use more. This is what's going to happen. So this is where... This is where the imbalance is. We need to focus in on this side." I didn't read any books on that. It just made sense to me. Like you watch NASCAR, they constantly go left, left, left, left turn, left turn. And I'm not a pit crew individual, but common sense tells me that if you're constantly turning left, the tires are not going to wear out the same.




TIM GROVER: They're not going to want to wear the same. So if you're constantly using one side more than using the other side, that side is going to wear out quicker. That side needs to be treated differently than the other side. He was just like, "Sounds good to me." And I'm like, "It makes perfect sense." And it worked. And it worked. So he gave me the ability not only to use my education, but also use my instincts, use my trust, other things that I felt were just right. And now research later, 10, 20, 30 years later comes out what I was guessing... Or what I knew back then, people are starting to do now. And I said, "Michael, when you play the game, are you always out there thinking?"


He goes, "No, I'm very rarely thinking." Exactly, because if you're thinking, you're not in the moment. So what to think a lot makes you... Forces you to think all the time. How to think is that you trust yourself. And you need both of them. And that's what allowed me to open up the door and create something with an individual that played on how to think and not what to think.


SHAWN STEVENSON: That's really, really powerful Tim. I had on... I don't know if you know Jim Kwik.


TIM GROVER: I do know Jim, yes.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. So he's... One of his big tenants is that in our education system, they teach you what to think and not how to think. And when he said that, it just spoke to me so much. And you saying that and reiterating, that's a principle of reality for so many of us, but we don't realize it. So that's one ingredient. You really had this capacity of having the awareness of how to think and not just what to think. So that's one ingredient, but what other ingredients... Because I know some folks are... They have aspirations of being in that room, of being in situations where they can collide with greatness, where they can access their own greatness. What was another ingredient that you had that put you in that situation?


TIM GROVER: Well, it was all the years of preparation to get to that point... Everybody in life is going to get a opportunity or the opportunity... It's just what you said. Are you practicing every single day to make the games easier. When that game comes, are you practicing every single day? I practice every single day on my craft, tirelessly, endlessly. I did it over and over again. So when that opportunity came, whether it was for 30 minutes, or it was for 30 seconds, whatever obstacle was going to be thrown in my way, I was going to win. I was going to win.


And people talk about the grind... Then it's like, "Oh... " So everybody goes... I went through the grind also. And this is another key, important thing that I put about in Winning. If you constantly grind something, what happens? It turns into dust. So people are always saying, "Man, I'm grinding. I'm grinding. I'm grinding." Well, what are you grinding to... What are you forming whey you grind? What is that end result? So every time I practiced, every time I won, my grind was for a purpose. It was to form something that was going to get me to the next level. I just wasn't griding just to grind just to make... You know everybody... It's a way to sound like, man you're working hard. "Man, I'm grinding." Well, what are you grinding for? What is the shape that you're trying to take in this grind. Winning wants, wants to see the shape of what you're going to look like, what you're grinding for.


When you have a party and people have these ice sculptors, it's a big old brick. You chisel away the things until you get the form that you want. When you're grinding for something, that's what you have to do. You have to grind away the un-essentials to have whatever you're looking... Whatever form you are looking for. And that was my practice every single day. So when I got that opportunity to win, I knew exactly what form I was in and what I could deliver.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. This is so... It's so simple. It's so simple.


TIM GROVER: It's not that complex.




TIM GROVER: Being healthy is not that complex.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yes... It's not complicated.


TIM GROVER: It's not complicated. Alright, if you're going to add something, you got to delete something. You got to take... It's not... I always tell people, every diet out there, every nutrition book, they all work. If you do them.




TIM GROVER: They all... Every single one of them works. Now, long term, short term that's not for me to say. But they all work. They all work. But no one's going to... No one's going to get healthy by just reading your book. They got to put... You said principles. They got to take the principles in the book and put them into action. You are not just going to win by reading the book. You have to put the principles into action. Not only physically, but mentally. That's the difficult part. That's the difficult part.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Those ingredients that you mentioned, one of them is learning and cultivating how to think, and the other one being... Really working on yourself. Really, again, making sure that you stay ready so that you don't have to get ready...




SHAWN STEVENSON: And if folks can really get that, to keep working on yourself, there's going to be external opportunities, there's going to be situations and moments, but the thing that you can control the most is keep building yourself up. Keep adding to your own superhero utility belt.




SHAWN STEVENSON: And working on your own skills, your own mindset, your own persistence, resilience, whatever it is, so that you're prepared for whatever opportunity or life throws at you. Now, another situation that we all experienced recently was the tragic passing of Kobe. And that's how 2020 kind of started. And you start the book off with some remarkable insights about working with Kobe and the mindset. You had just talked with him about a week prior.


TIM GROVER: Yeah, so... We had texted back and forth... He was busy. I was busy. We were trying to get together and it'd be like, "Man, you're good. I'm good. What are you doing?" His line was always, "I'm chasing... I'm chasing that next win." And we tried to get together. And then we... The All-Star game was going to be in Chicago that year. So the NBA All-Star game was going to be in Chicago so he said, "Hey, I'm going to be in town. I got some business... I got some business to take care of. So, let's plan together... Let's plan together. Let's get together during that time." Like done. It never happened. It never happened. So I used to always tell Kobe this all the time, I said, "We don't have time." 'Cause everything... Everything's an... Everything's an urgency 'cause... You just don't know when the career of a professional athlete is going to be over with. And I wasn't thinking of it that way, I was thinking of more of, you know, "Hey, you only have so many jump shots. You only have so many miles on the legs. We're going to prolong it as long as we can." So I said, "We don't have time."


And I think about that statement, and I... Every day I was just like, "Man, I wish I was wrong. I wish I was wrong." And you don't have time for your health. The longer you wait to get your health in check the less chance you have of winning. So when everybody says, "I'll start... I'll start tomorrow." I'll start next week. I'll start after the holidays. You may not get a chance. You may not get a chance.


SHAWN STEVENSON: The thing that I really admired even about your description of Kobe and his approach to things... Because we know about the basketball legend, but he took that same mentality... You have to put it into something. Like...


TIM GROVER: You have to... Yes you do.


SHAWN STEVENSON: If I don't put my mentality of a fight and dominance and service into something, I'll go crazy.


TIM GROVER: You become destructive to yourself. And then you have individuals that aren't healthy, that aren't living a healthy lifestyle physically and mentally, it's just because of what you said. They have this competitiveness in them and they don't... Haven't found anything else to challenge it... Challenging it. You see it in athletes all the time that once they stop playing, that's when a lot of the destructive behaviors happen. And you look at the successful... You look at the successful individuals, they've always learned to compete in a different... In a different arena.


Kobe after he stopped playing... After he stopped playing basketball, he had already won an Oscar, wrote unbelievable children's book and was just like, "Hey, I'm about to take over Hollywood." Alright. You have Dwyane Wade broadcasting, fashion, game show host. So it's constantly competing against something. MJ, well, we already know about the shoes. It's iconic. Now that he has that, he's in the tequila business, and he's in many other ventures. How would you like to be an individual that built your own private, private 18-hole golf course?


SHAWN STEVENSON: That's a big deal. That's a big deal.


TIM GROVER: Yeah. Your own... You can close it any time you want to and say, "Hey, I'm just going to... I'm just going to play. I'm just going to play." But that competitive nature doesn't... It cannot stop. It cannot stop. What did I say earlier? We all love to compete. We all love to compete. But at some point in your life, you look at individuals and you just say, "When did you give up? When did you no longer want to win? When did you no longer want to win in your relationship? When did you want no longer want to win to see your kids get better? When did you no longer want to win with your health? When did you just decide that winning in all aspects is not important?" And you see it all the time in people. You just see it that they've just like... They've just settled for mediocrity. They've settled for average. Because that's where most people are. That's where the most comfort is. Well, and the one thing I enjoy every single day, is I enjoy being able to go in my closet and being able to wear whatever I want. Everything in my closet fits. As simple as that may seem, every day I can do that that's a win for me.


And each day that win is a little bit harder, it's a little bit harder, it's a little bit harder. But if you're blessed enough to open your eyes and to be able to put your feet on the ground, it's a great day. The rest is up to you. The rest is up to you 'cause many people don't get that opportunity.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, yeah. I was just picturing you, Tim Grover, having that experience walking into the closet everything fits versus if you gave up and I bump into Tim walking out of Burlington Coat Factory with the triple XXXL, big and tall men's department.


TIM GROVER: And which would be easier?


SHAWN STEVENSON: The Burlington. Shout-out to Burlington. Discount prices.


TIM GROVER: Which would be easier? Like to literally be like, "Yeah, you know what... " And that's what most people do.




TIM GROVER: That's what most people do. I wouldn't... Listen. No, disrespect to anybody else... If I couldn't display what I talk about, you wouldn't have me on this show. If I wasn't living proof of what you talk about on a daily basis... Real is real. Real is real. I don't want to talk to a guy about mindset and about fitness, who's coming in here, who's just like... Yeah... Who doesn't portray to any of that. No. I'm not.


SHAWN STEVENSON: But... That's another one of the ingredients of Tim Grover is walking the talk, which again... It should be obvious, but in our world today, there tends to be a lack of congruency. And when it's something so simple. We talk about practice what you preach and all these little cute terms. But truly just abiding by the principles that you aspire towards that you want to imbue in other people, just being it. And then this is why... This is The Model Health Show. It's being the model, being the example and doing it yourself. It might be difficult at times. It might be... It might stretch you. It might call character traits out of you, you didn't even know you had. But at the end of the day, it's going to feel really good because you're going to have those wins. But ultimately... And this is what I want to ask you about because I love this about you so much and about the book. And you had mentioned this a little bit earlier, but you don't have a top 10 or a top 13. You do have a list of requirements for winning, but all of them are number one.


So it's like number one, this, number one... And I want to ask you about this because this is one of the things that really talks about how things... We have those victories, but they can be fleeting. It's a continuous process. But one of these... I want to ask you about this one first, then I'll come back to that one. This one's so powerful. Number one, winning wages war in the battlefield of your mind.


TIM GROVER: Every day there's a war going on in the battlefield of the mind here. Who's taking control of that battlefield? Are you taking control of that battlefield or is somebody else taking control of that battlefield? Listen, every single day, we have to deal with anxiety, we have to deal with, am I good enough? We have to deal with, with what everybody else is telling us. We have to deal with fear. We have to deal with failure. We have to deal with those things. If those things are constantly blowing up all the time, you're going to lose the battle. You have to be able to know where those minefields are.


And you have to be able to maneuver those... To maneuver in those things. And not always those things are negative. A lot of times people set you up for that battlefield... For that explosion in your mind. "You don't need to work out today." "Man, Shawn... Man enjoy yourself, man. Here, have a couple of drinks. Do this thing." So other people start to plant those things in your mind and they get control of it and they start to explore those things. They start to disengage all those things. They start to blow things up. This is your most valuable real estate. This is your most valuable real estate. And for a lot of individuals, we don't even control this real estate, somebody else is sitting in there, in your real estate and they're not even paying rent. They're like, "You're just gave... "




TIM GROVER: Yeah, squatting. Exactly. You just... You just gave them that space. You got to be able to control that minefield that's going on in here. Your thoughts are not always your actions. Alright, listen. If all my thoughts were my actions, we...


SHAWN STEVENSON: The Tim Grover serial killer story.


TIM GROVER: Thank you. Thank you.




TIM GROVER: Thank you... No. But we're not. We're not always... We don't have to act on all of our emotions, we don't have to do those things. But you have to understand there's a battle that's going on in that mind, every single day. Every time you sleep, every time you get up, all those things. Listen, I have this thing in there, and this is so important. Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings. Think about every poor decision that you've made in your life.


It was a decision mostly made by your feelings. And you did that because you didn't want to hurt somebody. You didn't want to tell them the truth. And that's a battlefield that constantly goes on in the mind. That's why, listen, with me, you know what you're going to get. I want you to tell me the truth. I'm going to tell you the truth. When is the best time to tell the truth? All the time. All the time. You know... I tell the thing... A couple of... A couple of years ago, I was on a date with a young lady. We went out a couple of... We went out a couple of times. And then I was like, "This isn't going to work."


So we got together and she goes, "Oh, please don't give me that line that it's not me, it's you." I said, "No, no, it's you. No, it's you." You don't have to worry about that. Let's get this perfectly clear. But the point to that story is you tell the truth, you control the battlefield and you control the battlefield in your mind. You let other people tell you the truth... Yeah, it isn't going to always lead to the right emotion, but it's done. It's closure, you get to move on. Your mind has to be stronger than you feelings. We spend... Most people's nutrition. Alright. When do they give up?


SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. When things get a little challenging.


TIM GROVER: That's it. When they start, "Ah, I don't feel... " Yeah, okay, you put them on a healthy plan to a better life, more fulfilling life. Alright, yeah, there are going to be some feelings and emotions that are going to be like, "Hey, no, you know what... You know what you don't need to sleep as much, you don't need to work out. You don't need to workout today. You can go ahead and have that cookie, you can go ahead and have that ice cream," and your feelings start to say, "Yeah it'll be okay," and your mind says, "I can't, no, no, no, no.: Most people, when they give up, you think about it in a workout, alright. You give up because you're mentally tired or you're physically tired. Most people, they just give up because their feeling just said, "I don't want to do this anymore," but you can still... Then when your coach tells you, "Come on, push a little bit more," all of a sudden, you find that extra gear. Well, that's just showing you that if your mind is stronger than your feelings, how much more you can do.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Part of that, what you said earlier was... Just really jumped out at me... All of that is incredibly powerful, but when somebody, for example, is offering you like, "Hey, come on, it's okay, here's this... " When I was really going hard, just the way that I grew up, I go to Taco Bell, I get 10-pack tacos and I'm not sharing. If somebody was like, "Here you have your 10 pack." And they know that you are, for example, working on a new health protocol, you're really working to be better, and that... But we think that it's them. But part of us is inviting that permission slip and that's part of that battlefield of the mind, and you having the opportunity to overcome that moment, and it's not even villain-izing the thing, it's just having this higher... Something that tastes even better, something... That win, that victory, that tastes so much better than these really shitty Taco Bell tacos.


TIM GROVER: You can go to get that taste from those tacos from a lot of different places, there's only one way and only one place you can get that taste and feeling of winning, and that's by winning. That's it. You can't get it from anywhere else. You can't get it from Taco Bell, you can't get it from Del Taco, you can't get it from Dell Frisco, you can't get it from whatever Del there is out there. Alright, you can't. That's the only place you can get winning from.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Number one, so number one, winning wages war in the battlefield of your mind. Number one, here's another one, number one, winning is the ultimate gamble on yourself.


TIM GROVER: Confidence, confidence. You got to gamble on yourself. Did you gamble on yourself?


SHAWN STEVENSON: Absolutely, had to.


TIM GROVER: Alright, Shawn, did you gamble on yourself? Alright, did you gamble on yourself young man? Alright. I gambled on myself. Why should... Why are you waiting for somebody else to believe in you and have more control? You got to gamble on yourself. You got to know that, "Hey listen, when I gamble on myself, I have the utmost confidence, I know what the outcome is going to be." Put your health in your own hands. Put winning in your own grasp. Don't wait for somebody else to hand it to you. But you have to believe in yourself, you have to believe in your abilities, not only do you have to believe in them, you have to work in them, you have to excel in them, you have to understand them. If you're not willing to gamble on yourself, I'm not going to gamble on you, there's no way. I'm not going to gamble on you. I've never had to tell my athletes, listen, "You got to want it, you got to work hard, you got to show up early." That's part of the gamble, they already know that. They already know that. You hear this all the time, man, showing up is half of the battle. No, showing up is none of the battle, showing up is none of the battle. How do you expect to win the battle if you don't show up? It's just people that say that aren't willing to gamble on themselves, they're just not.


SHAWN STEVENSON: We're just touching on some of these tenets that are outlined in the book. I just want to hit on a couple more before I let you go, because these are things that I want to hear more about myself as well, and this one really jumped out at me, and I think it's really relevant right now as well. Number one, winning is a test with no correct answers.


TIM GROVER: No correct answers. There is no correct answers. The way you won is not the way I'm going to win, the way Jordan wins is not going to be the way Sherry win. No, we're all going to win or we're all going to have to figure it out ourselves, we're all going to have to figure it out ourselves, this is going back into what to think and how to think. This is it. There is no correct... If there's a correct answer, it's all about what to think, what to think. There is... Nobody told me when I was training MJ to be like, "Hey, listen, work out on game day." Nobody told me that. I didn't read that in a book.


SHAWN STEVENSON: That sounds insane. Just coming from the outside, you guys lifted on game days.


TIM GROVER: Every game. Every single game. Nobody told me... And people still do this now. You would see MJ and Kobe, Dwyane, all these individuals play so hard, and it was like, "Man, sometimes I get tired, I wish I could recover a little bit more". And I'm thinking... In my mind I'm thinking about it. And all the old adages out there, when you work out... You know, these are principles that you and I... When we were early in our careers, we may have even told other individuals because they told us to do this when you're really breathing hard and you try gasping for air, put your hands above your head so you can open up your lungs more. I'm breathing pretty freaking hard, my lungs are open. I think they're pretty much open. How can I recover faster? I told MJ, I said, "Grab your shorts." How many pictures do you see of MJ grabbing his shorts? I said, "Just bend over and grab your shorts." I said, "Don't put your hands on your knees, just grab your shorts," I said, "it'll allow you to recover," 'cause now what happens is you don't have the full weight of your body anymore, and I told Kobe the same thing, Kobe said... Well, I said... He goes, What that? He goes, "That doesn't look good." I said, "You want to look good or you want to win? Which one you want to do?" So that's what that's all about. That's literally what that's all about.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Iconic. I'm going to ask you about one more, because we've all heard the statement that life isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, but winning is different. So you have number one, winning is not a marathon, it's a sprint with no finish line.


TIM GROVER: Yes. It is a marathon, but with a bunch of sprints in between, and there is no finish line because once you finish one win, the next line always starts and the next one always starts and the next one always starts. You may win that day from a nutrition standpoint, if you're starting a health program or the mental exercise you give the individuals to create clarity or whatever, you've won that day. But the next day is a new start, and the next day it's a new start and it's a new finish and it's a new finish every time you finish the podcast, every time you do a new podcast, you finished that podcast, you got to the win, but there's another one, and then there's another one. And then there's another one. There's always another one. And you have to think of it this way, when you watch horses run in a race, they have no idea where the finish line is, they have no idea where the finish line is, they just keep going. You literally have to slow them down. So in your mind, understand that once you get to that... Once you end up finishing that thing, there's always another win that's waiting for you, there's always another one, and there's never a finish line. If there's a finish line, I go with exactly what Kobe said, "Rest at the end, not in the middle."


SHAWN STEVENSON: We're at the end of this episode, and Tim Grover, you are a true legend, and such a gift for all of us, and I just appreciate you so much. Let everybody know, please, where they can pick up the new book Winning.


TIM GROVER: Winning is out on May 18th. You can get it from any bookstore that's out there, online, it's available in audio, go to your favorite bookstore, go to Amazon. If you want to, you can order from, whatever you'd like, but it's being released on May 18th. Listen, Winning is in all of us. Like Kobe said, "Winning is everything." I want you to experience everything. I want you to do everything, I want you to live for everything.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Tim Grover, appreciate you so much.


TIM GROVER: Thank you.


SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you so much for tuning in to the show today. I hope you got a lot of value out of this. So many major takeaways, and one of the big ones is that winning is not normal, when you're committed to being the best version of yourself, when you're committed to accomplishing the big goals and dreams that you have, by its very nature, you're not going to be normal, you're not going to fit into the norm of what people believe is possible for you, what society believes is possible for you. And to hear this straight from somebody who has exposure around people who've done some of the most exceptional things that we aspire towards, and understanding truly it's an ingredient into the equation, and for us to be more comfortable with being different, for us to be more comfortable with being a little weird, as he called it, crazy. So when people say, You're crazy, say, "Thank you. We're real crazy." Take it as a compliment. And also something that just hit another run of importance and just another layer, adding another leg to the belief that I already have around really inspiring people to not just learn what to think, but how to think.


And this is something that's not really given to us in our conventional system of education, we're really inundated with facts and figures and things that we should know and really telling us what to think and not gifting us, opening up that capacity, which we all have innately but cultivating that for us to really learn how to think and how to think, how to take a meta perspective about different things, how to shift and look at things from different dimensions and... Because the reality is, as Tim mentioned, practically every diet book works, it's not that they don't work, it's a matter of context. There are situations where they work, there are situations where they work for you, there are situations where they don't work for you, and for us to be able to analyze and look at all those things, instead of just looking at, "This is telling me what to do," you've got to understand that there's nuance, and if we learn how to think, we can start to apply these things in its appropriate context. But this is just a muscle that we work, it's something that we build over time because it can atrophy just like anything else, so really learning how to learn and not just what to learn, and so a good resource for that are the episodes that we did with accelerated learning expert, Jim Kwik.


Alright, so we'll put those for you in the show notes as well, but listen, Winning is a powerful book, this is a powerful conversation, this is a powerful time to really embrace our own greatness and to really step up and to take things to another level. The world is really, really desiring that, but it's going to take somebody who's comfortable with not being normal to step up and do it, but just a little caveat here, it's not necessarily about being comfortable either, because there's going to be discomfort along the way, it's embracing that as well, because I truly believe that it's not that the entire process has to be this grind, like you mentioned... And I really love that he said that, You can grind yourself into nothing, there's a place that you come to where the difficulty and the challenge, it's not that you necessarily fall in love with it, because that's kind of romantic as well, it's that you're just kind of accept it and embrace it. And so that it doesn't even seem as difficult anymore, just because it's just become the norm. And so what are the things that you can do day-to-day in your own life that put you in a little bit of discomfort that builds that muscle of being comfortable with being uncomfortable.


Maybe it's doing the cryotherapy, cold plunge, maybe it's reading and learning about something that's, what you feel is outside of your wheel house, so maybe you are really into learning about nutrition, but you pick up a book on physics, or you pick up a book on basket weaving or, I don't know, something else that just seems like it's not really in your domain. But what we find continuously over and over again is that when I learn about things that aren't necessarily in my passion or that are in my field of expertise, consistently I pull something away from it. I'm a big fan of beauty, I'm a big fan of greatness in many different domains, and I study greatness, I study people who are great performers in different areas that folks might not necessarily attribute if they just saw me on the street, or even if they listen to the podcast, or read my books, but I'm a big fan of greatness in country music, for example. I'm a big fan of greatness in poetry, I'm a big fan of greatness in track and field, that's what I've been watching a lot lately, I've been watching the track and field highlights, every day I'm looking at that.


And just really thinking about when I see the greatness, I think about the person's story, I listen to their voice, I look at their demeanor, and I just appreciate it because I really understand what it takes, it takes something that is so gut-wrenching and so such a process that it brings qualities out of them that they didn't even know that they had. Today, on this very day, I sent a video to my oldest son, Jorden, and it was a track and field event, it was a qualifying event, and it was several Olympic athletes were in this 100m sprint, but there was also an athlete who you wouldn't suspect to be there, he's an NFL player by the name of DK Metcalf, and he's really shot to a level of fame because of his production on the football field, and has his iconic situation on the football field where his team turns the ball over and they're like... The person who picked the ball off is like 20 yards ahead of him, running towards the other end zone, and DK comes out of nowhere, literally like a video game, like a cartoon, and hunts this guy down, another grown-ass man professional athlete who's flying the other direction, and DK has another gear, and he hawks him down and stops him from scoring.


All of that groundswell enabled him to get on that track with Olympic athletes, but he ran track, I believe in college, in high school, so he had experience, it wasn't just so foreign to him, but for him to have the opportunity to get on that track with these Olympic athletes and to actually compete to get to another qualifying round... Now, there's nine people in that race... They did not leave him. I'll tell you that, he was right there, he was right there with them. He ended up tying for the final position, so he wasn't dead last. He ran a 1036, which is again, lightning fast, but let me explain this piece to you, he also did this while carrying an additional 50, 60 pounds of just mass, that he's moving through space that the other runners just didn't have. If he didn't have that, oh my god, it is insane. But that level of greatness and it shows up in different domains, there's different flavors of it, because we might see that, well, he didn't win, he got on the track, but he didn't win. That's a massive victory to be able to perform, to be able to stand toe to toe with the world's best in a different domain, that's not even yours. That's a win. That's a win.


So there's many variations of winning, it takes different forms, but it's also a continuous process, and that's one of the things that really spoke to me in reading Tim's book, having conversations with him, that I've seen many times over and over again, when one victory is complete, the next is in front of you.


And once we understand that, it breaks us away from so much worry, depression, anxiety, because so often we're striving for this pinnacle, this thing, and I've met so many people over the years that they get to that thing and they find out that that's not the end. That's not where happiness exists. It might be temporary, they might achieve some temporary happiness, but being gifted with this life right now, it is a continuous process of sprints, as Tim talked about, it's a marathon with a series of sprints. So falling in love with that, embracing that, it's a continuous process, what's the next goal, what's the next win? And finding ways to win day-to-day in our lives and also encouraging that in other people. That's what it's all about. I appreciate you so much for tuning into the show today. If you got a lot of value out of this, please share it out with your friends and family, you can tag me on social media I'm @shawnmodel, and of course, you can share this directly from the podcast app. Make sure to check us out on YouTube, we're doing a lot of great content over on YouTube, we're sharing like three to four videos a week over on YouTube, so subscribe to The Model Health Show on YouTube as well, and we've got some powerhouse shows coming for you very, very soon. So make sure to stay tuned. Take care, have an amazing day, and I'll talk with you soon.


And for more after the show, make sure to head over to That's where you can find all of the show notes, you could find transcriptions, videos for each episode, and if you got a comment, you can leave me a comment there as well, and please make sure to head over to iTunes and leave us a rating to let everybody know that the show is awesome, and I appreciate that so much. And take care, I promise to keep giving you more powerful, empowering, great content to help you transform your life. Thanks for tuning in.

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