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TMHS 324: Build Your Mental Fitness & Become Relentless with Tim Grover

What separates the good from the great? Whether we’re talking about sports or entrepreneurship, it’s undeniable that there are incredible traits that all successful people have in common.   

Tim Grover has helped elite athletes and entrepreneurs take their skills to the next level by fine-tuning their mindset and building mental toughness. His wisdom and insights are applicable to your journey regardless of your goals.

On today’s show, he’s sharing the guiding principles from his book, Relentless. You’ll learn about the three different distinctions of individuals, and the mindset that determines their success. We’re discussing the importance of listening to your instincts, how to create results, and how you can apply these principles to every area of your life.

In this episode you’ll discover:

  • The importance of eliminating distractions in the gym.
  • How the mind gets trained to follow instructions.
  • The benefits of having a results-oriented mindset.
  • How listening and observing can help you become empowered.
  • What it means to be relentless.
  • The three categories of people that Tim describes in his book.
  • What it means to be a cleaner (and how it correlates with success!)
  • The lessons that Tim learned from watching Michael Jordan play basketball.
  • Why there are no secrets to success.
  • The difference between dealing with pressure and handling pressure.
  • Why delaying happiness is so dangerous.
  • How listening to your instincts can make you more successful.
  • The importance of having the audacity to listen.
  • Why being selfish can actually help you serve others.



Items mentioned in this episode include:

Thank you so much for checking out this episode of The Model Health Show. If you haven’t done so already, please take a minute and leave a quick rating and review of the show on Apple Podcast by clicking on the link below. It will help us to keep delivering life-changing information for you every week!


Shawn Stevenson: Welcome to The Model Health Show. This is fitness and nutrition expert, Shawn Stevenson, and I'm so grateful for you tuning in with me today.

We've got a very, very, very special guest here on the show for this episode, and it's so interesting because his book is the first book that I read together with my older son, Jordan, and Jordan has just started his senior year of high school, and it was just such a great experience for me.

We read this together over the summer, and after each set number of chapters, we would have a conversation. And I'd begin to see these light bulbs go off, because a lot of folks over the years working in my clinical practice would ask me about, "How do I influence my kids? How do I influence my parents?"

And you might have heard the statement that you can't be a prophet in your own land. And of course we can communicate and extend and help instill knowledge in our loved ones, but sometimes it's easier if there's an outside voice and perspective to help to encourage them and to change their perspective.

And Tim was definitely somebody who did that for me and for my son, and so I don't even think he knows how valuable he is in my own life personally.

And so we're going to be talking with him, and his incredible story, and just provide you with some huge insights to really take things to another level, because it's about time, alright?

But before we do that, traveling, I'm here in San Diego. Alright? It's beautiful, sunny days, but I've got to be honest. When I'm traveling it can be difficult for- a lot of folks experience this, especially when you're jumping time zones with getting your sleep back on track.

And one of the things that I use, especially when I'm traveling and changing time zones, is rishi, and I use this from Four Sigmatic, and this is why.

So this was 'Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and Behavior' did a fascinating study and found that rishi was able to significantly reduce sleep latency.

So this means that you fall asleep faster. Also, it improved overall sleep time. Also, it was proven to improve overall sleep quality.

So this means that they had more efficient sleep cycles. So this is high quality REM sleep and also non-REM anabolic sleep as well.

All from this- and by the way, you don't have to get a prescription, alright? This has been used literally for thousands of years, and I get it from Four Sigmatic because it's dual extracted, and that means that they're doing a hot water extraction and an alcohol extraction so that you actually are getting the compounds you're hearing about in a study like this. Alright?

They're doing it the right way. Simple, easy to use little packets, I pour hot water in, and I'm good to go. Alright? I had some last night, this is a big part of my overall wellness strategy, but especially when I travel.

So I highly encourage you to check them out, That's and you get 15% off this and all of their other incredible elixirs, mushroom coffees, mushroom hot chocolates if you want to have a little bit of fun.

And I just think they're one of the favorite and best things ever on the planet, alright? So pop over there and check them out, for 15% off. Now let's get to the Apple Podcasts review of the week.

ITunes Review: Another five-star review titled, 'My Go-To Health Podcast and So Much More,' by SeattleBookworm33.

"This podcast became a regular of mine immediately. I love the way Shawn explains complex health, fitness, and life principles in a way that is so clear and simple.

His explanations of the research studies that back up claims is one example. I don't have to just trust his word. He provides the reasoning and evidence that has convinced him, and that makes me more likely to allow those principles to truly change me, because I've become to believe them for myself, not just go on someone else's belief.

Thank you so much, Shawn. This podcast is changing my life."

Shawn Stevenson: Alright, thank you so much for leaving me that review over on Apple Podcasts. It means so very much to me. And listen, if you've yet to leave a review, please pop over and leave a review for the show. It means the world to me, truly.

And on that note, let's get to our special guest and our topic of the day.

Our guest today is a living legend, alright? We've got Tim Grover on the show, the author of this incredible book, 'Relentless.' Which again, I read this together with my son, and it really was a powerful experience for both of us.

This guy has worked with- you name it. Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Michael Jordan, guys. Hall of Fame athletes and also entrepreneurs, people who are looking to take their game to another level in their businesses as well, and just life overall.

He's an incredible figure, he's somebody who's accomplished a great deal, but we're getting today to see some of the behind the scenes, and some of his story, and how he got to where he is today.

And so I'm very, very excited and grateful to welcome to The Model Health Show my man, Tim Grover. How are you doing today, Tim?

Tim Grover: I'm well, Shawn. Yourself?

Shawn Stevenson: I'm doing great.

Tim Grover: Pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Shawn Stevenson: Oh, it's my pleasure. My pleasure. So I would love to start with your superhero origin story. Alright? So I talked to you a little bit earlier about my friend, Bedros Keuilian, and I thought about him several times reading your book.

Bedros talks about this immigrant edge. This is what he kind of came to this country with this- he felt was an advantage in a sense, and your story is a little bit similar. So first of all, how did you get into this game in the first place? How'd you get here and get to work?

Tim Grover: Well, I was always interested in fitness, you know? I'm still- the fitness is still my number one love, alright? It is, but there's so much more to fitness than just the physical part.

When you're an athlete in high school, you're an athlete in college, it's all about the physical. They give you physical training, they give you this, but no one really tells you what goes on up in here.

So I was blessed enough to play college basketball, I had an injury early in my career, and when I started school it was just like everybody else.

"I'm going to college." "What are you going to study?" "I have no idea."

You know, they don't know what's going on. And kinesiology was being offered the first quarter- yes, I said quarter. When I went to school - college - that's how long ago it was. It wasn't semesters, it was quarters.

And kinesiology, which is for people that don't know, it's basically the movement of joints, and muscles, and so forth. And somebody suggested I take the class, and I took the class, and I immediately fell in love with the topic.

I was like, "Oh, this is for me." Then people- I tried to explain to my parents what it was, and they really didn't know. I would talk to other people and they said, "Oh, you're going to be a gym teacher."

I was like- I said, "No, I have other ideas. But yeah, if that's what you want to call it right now. I don't want to get in a discussion with you."

So that kind of led me- and I've always been athletic, and one thing that was- I was a very heavy kid but I was always athletic.

Shawn Stevenson: I didn't know that.

Tim Grover: Yeah, I was one of the fat kids that could move.

Shawn Stevenson: That's trouble.

Tim Grover: Yeah.

Shawn Stevenson: That's trouble.

Tim Grover: And I was short, too. Back then, I remember when I was going to freshman year of high school, I was 4'11" 185 pounds.

Shawn Stevenson: No way.

Tim Grover: Yeah, so you could- yeah but I could still run, I could still move laterally, I could do things longer than other individuals could. And it wasn't because I was in better shape, I just knew how to push myself a little bit more than the other individuals.

And then I started to think about, 'If you don't have the physical gifts, how do some of these individuals, not only in business or in athletics, continue to achieve over everybody else?' And it starts with here.

Shawn Stevenson: I've got to ask you, because you had this early on. You knew that there was something, as you're pointing upstairs at your mind, where did you pick this up?

Because I knew in a book like this, and a story like yours, it wasn't something that you started picking up later in life. Like of course you mastered, but early on you must have had something about you. Where did this come from?

Tim Grover: Yeah, actually I'm the one- people say, "Where do you find your energy? Where do you find your knowledge?" I'm the person that can say, "I actually got it from my parents."

I saw them struggle, I saw them provide. You know, they came over from- we migrated- my parents migrated from India to England, then from England to here, and I saw the struggle, I saw the edge that my dad and my mom had to always have a better life, and the things they had to sacrifice, and they did.

You know, you can learn so much if you just sit back and just watch. Everybody always wants to talk and have an answer for something.

If you just sit back and observe people, and observe the world, and observe individuals that are able to empower you without even saying a word, just through their actions.

Because everybody can talk a story, everybody can tell you, "I'm going to do this," or, "I'm going to do that," and they tell you about the story about, "I was homeless, and I was this, and you can do it," and all of that.

But when you actually see individuals from where they were, and it's out there all the time. Just like you see a transformation in an individual from a physical standpoint, the mental aspect has to change first.

And it's no difference in working out, there's no difference in a person who's an entrepreneur, who's a business individual.

You just sit there and watch. Like people, you see on Instagram all the time, and people, they talk about- everyone loves to show off their cars, and their big houses, and their watches, and all that stuff.

I don't see that stuff. I try to look at the individual and try to understand their story of how they got to that- how they got to that place.

Shawn Stevenson: Right.

Tim Grover: And that's what impresses me. Not the houses. That's all obtainable by any one of us.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.

Tim Grover: But it's that edge. How did that person get that? How did that person get that edge to do what they do? And if you look close enough, it's around you.

You just have to be willing to find it and then willing to understand what you need to do to have that become a part of your life.

Shawn Stevenson: I love it, man. I wasn't expecting to hear that, but it's just basically just paying attention, right? Just paying attention.

Tim Grover: Yeah, if you look at it- especially with these generations now. Obviously I just got a chance to meet your boys out there.

There's so much- it's so easy for everybody to get distracted now. That means literally- there's distraction- you carry it around with you. You carry it around with you, and I always say it's amazing.

I come from a generation where- I'm going to say this to your listeners, and I don't even know how many are going to even know this.

If you had to find something, you had to go to a library. You had to go-

Shawn Stevenson: A what?

Tim Grover: Yeah, exactly. A library, and then you had to do what's known as a Dewey Decimal System. Where you had to do a card-

Shawn Stevenson: I remember.

Tim Grover: See, you understand. You had to look up the resource, and when you got a book, you only had a certain amount of time with it because the library needed it back for somebody else.

Shawn Stevenson: "We're going to need that book back. We're going to need that knowledge back."

Tim Grover: So somebody else is going to have that. So you were a lot more focused because your time was limited.

Now here it's you have access to so much more information, but why are people doing so much less?

You know, you have clients, you've had success with so many clients, and then you see individuals that they're at the gym every single day for years, and they look exactly the same. Why?

They may be focused in the gym, they may be distracted outside the gym. Or you get individuals that are really distracted in the gym.

How much time do they spend finding the right genre on their music? "Oh, I worked out for three hours." Well, you spent two and a half hours talking on your phone.

Shawn Stevenson: Right, watching YouTube videos.

Tim Grover: Watching YouTube. You know, you get in, and you get out.

Shawn Stevenson: I saw somebody sitting at the shoulder press chair playing Solitaire on their phone. And I did need that seat.

Tim Grover: It's funny, and then they'll come to you because you're an example of what you speak about, and you look it, and you walk it. And they're like, "Well excuse me, so how did you get like that?"

You're like, "Well you can't do that." Then they become offended because you just told them the truth.

Shawn Stevenson: Right, "Get off your phone."

Tim Grover: "Get off your phone and do the work." So many- with this, there's so much distractions out in here, and to avoid those distractions, you've got to really be focused.

You've got to really have that energy going in a direction that you want it to go in. Because remember, energy is all around us, and it pulls us in every single direction.

It's your job to take that energy and decide which direction you want to put it towards.

Shawn Stevenson: Right, absolutely. Man, and you are the embodiment, and what you talked about in the book is something that is just so powerful, just a really powerful understanding is that where the mind goes, the body will follow.

And really here in the book- and I love how you start off saying, "You don't need me to tell you what to do." Right? There are so many- who would want somebody to tell them what to do?

Nobody is waking up like, "I can't wait for people to tell me what to do today." But you're going to give people those tools to change their mindset to make decisions for themselves.

Tim Grover: At some point you can't wait to have somebody else light your fire. They can teach you how to do it, then you've got to light your own fire. Okay?

Your whole life, if you think about it, everybody's always telling you what to do. You know, when you were a kid, "Don't do this. Sit down here. You can't do that. You can't do that."

And then you get older, your mind and body gets trained that way to always follow instructions, waiting for somebody. "You need to follow this ten step program." Everyone already knows what to do.

And we go back because we're both fitness people. In order to get in shape and lose weight, yeah you can get into counting calories, and microns, and all this other stuff.

Move more, eat better. Let's start with that. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that. You know, we say that no one's lost a single pound by reading a diet book.

Shawn Stevenson: Right. Right.

Tim Grover: You've got to put the action behind it. You've got to follow what it says. Every diet out there works. It works. Whether it's a good diet or not, it works if you do it and you stick with it.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, that's so true. You know, I've literally said the statement so many times, because the tactics on losing weight or transforming your body are ridiculously simple. Right?

So like you just said, move, eat good food, get some sleep. You know? But why don't people do it? And it's really because of that mindset shift that needs to take place.

And so many people I feel are- they're so stuck and they're still clinging to that old identity. It's really like an identity shift that you're encouraging with the way that you write and what you're talking about.

And you talk about this concept of being relentless. So first, what does that mean for you? What does it mean to be relentless?

Tim Grover: Well, being relentless is having a mental focus and having a mental energy that is all about results. It's all about results.

You know, and people- when you think about results, it could be in anything you do. This isn't just about- individuals always measure success, and if this person is relentless about how much influence they have on an individual, how much money they have.

No, you have teachers that are totally relentless. You have bus drivers, you have individuals in everyday life. You look at just these people that are sitting here putting this show together.

Okay, being relentless is the mic is in place. The gentlemen stopped us earlier, "No, we need to change that." Paying attention to those little details matters.

Relentless is a mindset. It's habit that you create within yourself where you accept only perfection. You're never going to reach perfection, but knowing that's what you're always chasing, and if you know that you're always going to chase it, it's going to make you better and better, and just paying attention to those little details.

They can easily come on here and if this wasn't- if they didn't care about their job, or we didn't care about what we were doing here, these little sound effects, little things, the majority of the people may not know, but you know. These people know.

And that's not relentless. Being relentless is paying attention to every single detail so you can get that end result over and over again, and keeping that mental energy, and keeping that mental focus, which nowadays is so, so hard to do. But it can be done. I mean, people are doing it all the time.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Tim Grover: What's the difference between an individual when you work somebody out, if they spend the same amount of time in the gym, you put them on basically the same eating plan, and you get one person that gets all the results, and you get the other person that doesn't.

Yeah okay, obviously genetics if you really want to get technical, and metabolic rate and all that stuff which we won't talk about now, but shouldn't they get the same? Shouldn't they be headed towards the same goal?

If not, well what's going on? Something that's going on over here. How many people come up to you and say- you tell them, "Have you been following our eating plan?" "Yeah," and you already know they're lying. You can smell it on them that they're lying.

Shawn Stevenson: I've seen it a time or two, yeah for sure. Wow, man that's so powerful and so true.

And as you're saying this, because I didn't think about what you said earlier until this moment, about- I remember literally my first year of college.

I went to a private college, and it was kind of expensive, I got scholarships and all this good stuff, and first time I went to the library- true story, Dewey Decimal System.

Now, I'm not that old. You know? It was the school itself- like when I went to another school the following year, they have computers, everything was online, but they just hadn't changed over their system.

And I realized when you said this earlier, it literally just kind of stopped me in my tracks. We have instant access to all this knowledge we used to have to work so hard for, but now people are executing less. How is that possible, right?

And so it just got my wheels really turning, and you talking about this concept of being relentless. I really feel that it's a competitive advantage today.

Since so many people are distracted, there's so much that's pulling us in these different directions, if you can focus on that thing and execute, you're just putting yourself in an entirely different universe, and it's really not even that difficult. It's just having the courage to kind of do it.

Tim Grover: It is. You know, there's no secrets out there. You know, I love these people that try to sell, "My eight secrets to success," or so forth.

We already- everyone knows what to do. I love how people come in, and you've got to out-work the other individual, you've got to get up early, you've got to stay late, you've got to make more phone calls.

We all know that. We already know that, and it's what you said, it's being able to take that relentless mental focus, block off those distractions, and do what you need to do, and be able to finish.

Everybody can start something. How many people do you have in the fitness industry, or in entrepreneurship or whatever, everyone starts things, but how many people actually have the ability to finish something?

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. This brings us to a good segue with these three categories of people that you define in the book. Can you talk about that?

Tim Grover: Sure. We define individuals in three ways. We define individuals as a cooler, a closer, and a cleaner. And actually where I got the concept was when I was in the Olympics with Michael Jordan for the Dream Team.

You talk about probably the most talented roster on any team sport ever put together. Alright? And I'm watching all these guys just practice up and down, and I was watching Michael, and I had already been affiliated with him for a few years before that, and I'm just watching him.

And these guys are among the best of the best, and I'm just like, "There's something different about him. There's just something different."

And I just said- and the big term in sports is, "That person is a closer." I was like, "If you call him a closer, you're putting him in a pack that he doesn't belong. There's something in that individual."

And then I came up with the term as a 'cleaner' because no matter what you threw at him, he got you that end result over and over again, and the job was done spotlessly.

It was just done. I said, "So you can't put him in the same category."

So you know, you take an individual, a cooler. A cooler is an individual, they're average at what they do. They're the people that come in, you tell them to make fifty sales calls a day, they're going to make fifty sales calls.

Not fifty-one, not fifty-two, they're going to do exactly what you do. You tell an individual, "Hey, I need you to do fifteen reps."

If they can do twenty, they're going to stop at fifteen because you told them to do fifteen. They're good at what they do, alright?

And you have closers. Closers get you that end result as long as a lot of distractions aren't thrown in their direction. So you know, you give them a plan, they look at the plan, not many variables are thrown in there, they're going to get you that end result over and over again.

But when a lot of variables or things don't- when they don't have the play book in front of them, and they've got to become very instinctive, they don't always get that end result.

They know how to deal with pressure, but they don't know how to handle pressure. It's a big difference between the two. Alright? And then you get a cleaner.

Shawn Stevenson: Can you talk about that a little bit?

Tim Grover: Okay. So you get individuals that from a- the difference between dealing and handling. Dealing is you talk yourself into something.

"I'm going to play this great game. I'm going to play this great game. I'm going to do this. I'm going to get- this didn't happen last time, but this time it's going to happen."

Okay, handling it is actually getting that end result and showing everybody else. They don't talk about. No one ever questions it, and that's the main difference between a closer and a cleaner.

A cleaner doesn't- a closer never wants the pressure to exceed the pleasure. Okay? A cleaner, the pressure is the pleasure. They want to be in that pressure. They want to be in that pressure situation.

You know, I tell the story, if you look at Michael Jordan- and I use him as an example because he's done things numerous times, and I've actually had a front row seat, sometimes a seat right next to him for many, many years.

If you look at the shot that he made against Cleveland going way back. And for the younger generation, you can go on YouTube and pull this up.

And the whole story behind the thing is Doug Collins was the coach and he drew up this elaborate play because it was the last second play, and he was just like, "Go over here. Scottie, you run here. Michael, you do this."

They break out of the huddle, Michael pulls everybody in - and I know this is PG so I'll keep it clean - he tells everybody, "Get the F out the way. Give me the ball. Give me the ball."

That's the difference between somebody who's going to handle the pressure. "Just give me the ball." You know?

Shawn Stevenson: I love it. So in talking about somebody like Michael Jordan, for example, or Kobe, or the other folks that you've worked with, I know that a lot of people- one of the first things that would just kind of come up is why would they need a coach? Or why would they need somebody who's going to kind of help them to take their game to the next level?

And that's something that I saw clearly in your book, is that these are the people who know that there's another level, and they're constantly looking for ways to improve.

Tim Grover: It's amazing. You have your smartest individuals, your most successful people in business, whatever it is, sports, philanthropy, whatever it is. Alright?

They're the ones that are always looking to go to another level. They're always looking to resources, they're always the ones looking to reach out to individuals. Alright?

They always want to get better because if you take an individual- and again, let's go back to the fitness for a little bit.

You have an individual that needs to lose twenty pounds. Once they get on the program, the first five is pretty easy if they stay with the program.

The next five is going to be a little bit more difficult. The next three are going to be a little bit more difficult, and as it gets on.

So if you're at the elite of what you do, to show 1% gain, you've got to really find that edge. You've got to really know what works for you.

You know, what works for one individual may not work for another individual, but these individuals know that the competition is chasing them.

It's funny, they live kind of in a world of fear; fear of not being afraid, but fear of not being the best. That somebody is going to close that gap. You know?

Every year when they won championships, the first thing my clients would tell me, "What's next? I've got to get better."

You literally just won the championship and they're already like- it's funny. Cleaners are at their lowest after the highest of men.

So when they win championships, they exhale for a little bit, now their mind is already thinking, "What do I got to do next? What do I got to do here because I've gotten a little older? There's another year that's passed by."

So how do you keep that competitive edge as you get older? Because you know younger guys are coming, so what do you got to do?

You start to sharpen your mind a little bit more, and that's as you get older, as your physical gifts go, your mental edge has to get better.

Shawn Stevenson: That's being relentless.

Tim Grover: Yes.

Shawn Stevenson: And in your book with the same title, 'Relentless,' you said the statement that in order to have what you really want, you must first be who you really are. What does that mean?

Tim Grover: Shawn, how many people do you know out there that are living somebody else's life?

Shawn Stevenson: A lot. A lot.

Tim Grover: Alright, so at some point - I always say this - things happen. We all have struggles, you know? You never know what the next individual is going through.

Everybody in life is going through something that you know nothing about. You know nothing about.

So usually when that happens is somebody else comes in, and they snatch your identity. Either you gave it to that person or somebody took it, so now you start to live their life.

They set up real estate in your head. They got you thinking the way they want you thinking. You need to go back and take your identity back from that individual, or the person or individual that either took it or you gave it to them.

Once you realize who you really are, and that's the whole premise about 'Relentless,' and we talked about this.

Relentless doesn't tell you what to do. It gives you permission to be who you really are. We're all born to be competitive. None of us are born here just to be average.

We all have the ability to do more. We have the ability to get to the level that we want. Physically we all have limitations, but the mind is- it's limitless in knowledge that you can obtain, and that you have access to become that individual that you're meant to be on this planet.

But then you start to live the way somebody else lives, because you learn- you figure out and then you stop dealing with adversity, and you stop dealing with things that are going to come at you because you're out there, you're always looking for happiness.

How many people out there, "If I lost ten more pounds, I would be happier." "If I was in a better relationship, I would be happier." "If I had more money, I would be happier."

Well, you know what? You could have all those things, but instead of having somebody else do that- you don't go out and find happiness, you create it.

And how do you create it? You create it by becoming the person that you are meant to be. That's how you create- you don't find happiness, you create happiness.

And once you can create that happiness, then you start feeling better about yourself, the weight starts coming off, your mind starts to become more clear, you're able to deal with more adversity.

You know, you have individuals all that time that come up to you when something doesn't go right, what do they do? They put their arm around you and say, "It's going to be okay."

That's all you got? Okay. No, it's not going to be okay unless you make it okay. Alright? And first- if somebody just says, "We're not put on this earth for things just to be okay. There's too many people out there that are already settling for okay and average."

That's not what we're put on this planet for. Everybody on this planet has the ability to do something special.

And it's special to what? To you. You know, you have individuals here that are really into different kinds of charitable events, you have people that run unbelievable pet rescues, or whatever it is. Whatever is unique to you.

Those are not financially super rewarding, but that's the identity of the person. That's what's unique to those individuals. They are living their life of how they want to live, not what somebody else wants them to be.

Shawn Stevenson: Right. Man, I thought that was so powerful because especially during this time when we can get so many- my mother-in-law calls them borrowed desires. Right?

Especially with social media today. Like if I had that thing, when it wasn't even on your radar before, and you stopped listening to that inner guidance system about who you really are and what really makes you happy and brings you fulfillment.

It might not be making six or seven or eight figures. It might be, like you just mentioned, running a non-profit, or doing something and getting that fulfillment from something else.

But we have this really misconstrued idea that if I get that thing that everybody else has, then I'll be happy. And like you said, that's like folks taking up real estate in our own mind, so it's nuts.

Tim Grover: From what you just said, we all have instincts, and if you just listen to your instincts, most of the time they're going to point you in the right- it'll point you in the right direction.

If you just think about how simple it is. When you're driving, and you'll be like, "Yeah, this location is on the right, but I'm going to turn left." And you go, "I should have listened to my instinct."

You should have listened to your gut. And you know, we talk about closer and cleaners, a closer trusts his instincts. Okay? In cleaners, instincts trust them.

And there's these little levels of what these 1% can do, but we all have the ability, we all have instincts.

You already know things, a lot of decisions you make in life, a lot of things you do, you already know what the consequences and outcome is going to be, but you still do it anyway.

Shawn Stevenson: Right.

Tim Grover: Okay? You still do it anyway.

Shawn Stevenson: Man, this is so powerful because I'm a very analytical person, and I'm a scientist so I'm always looking for the data, the proof. How can we replicate something?

Tim Grover: Right.

Shawn Stevenson: And some things- and this is also what I really wanted to meld into my show, and why I do what I do, is there are some things that we can't explain, and it's beautiful.

Tim Grover: It is.

Shawn Stevenson: Part of that is our instincts. Like we don't have tangible proof of that knowing, but we all experience it.

And so when you wrote in the book about trusting animal instincts, I'm like- but what do you say when people say, "Well, we're not animals."

Like because a bird, just within a matter of a certain amount of time, is going to be able to fly. The baby deer when it comes out, it'd better get up and walk.

Tim Grover: Yes.

Shawn Stevenson: The instincts are there. We're part of that kingdom.

Tim Grover: Yes, we are.

Shawn Stevenson: We have some phenomenal instincts but we allow- again, folks taking up real estate in our minds. Also faulty beliefs about reality taking up real estate, and we stop listening to our instincts, and I think that that's one of the biggest issues because when you mentioned- like just today I was taking my son to a college visit, and my instincts were telling me to go to certain parking, and I didn't listen, and I ended up spending like five minutes driving back around.

And those are those moments, Tim, that it's just like, "I've got to listen to my instincts." And I really- like I get on myself about it now, because every time I listen, without fail, something good happens. You know?

It might be the- let me not say every time, it might be those little random whatever. But if I look sometimes- you know, it might be something that I do in business, or it might be something in working with somebody.

When I listen to my instincts, it might not seem like it turned out the way that I expected, but there's always a gift in it.

Tim Grover: Yes, and I've written programs, I've sat- just like you, I've sat down for weeks or months putting this elaborate training program for an individual, analyzing all the movement patterns, seeing what's going on, got all of the health reports, and I get five minutes into a training program and I'm just like, "This ain't going to work."

Just like, "It ain't going to work." It looks great on paper, everything- like I got it, I got it down, and the minute the athlete does one move, I say, "Throw it out. Start all over."

Shawn Stevenson: That takes courage to do that.

Tim Grover: It does. It does, and listen, we already know. Instead of like trying to force something in there, and just, "I'm going to make this work, I'm going to make this work because I know the numbers are this way."

It's just not- for some individuals, you have to have the courage to say, "I'm going in a different direction. I'm still going to get that end result, but I'm going in a different direction."

You know, when you first started doing these podcasts and everything you're doing, how many different times did you have to change things up? And you're constantly still evolving. Alright?

Like I said, you're still chasing that- you can go back to everything that you've done, and you can sit there, and every single podcast that you've done, and all the followers that you have and everything, you can't say that, "I've had a perfect one."

Because if you watch something, you'll be like, "That was off. I should have asked that question. I should have done that."

And those are your instincts that allow you to be better and better each time over and over and over again.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. And oh man, it just really makes me hungry for it, you know? Just even thinking about it, and I think there's a lot of questions that come up for folks when they read a book like yours.

Like you know, where do I fit in this spectrum? And I think that there's- because even as you're speaking, like I'm really, really excited and hungry to get better. You know?

And looking from the outside in, you might think, there's a pinnacle you've reached, but it's not. You know? There's always more.

Tim Grover: There's always more. You look at your most competitive individuals. Kobe went from retiring twenty years of basketball, now he's become relentless, and is a cleaner in the business world.

Michael went from playing his fifteen years, then ownership of a team, running the most successful shoe brand company

Shawn Stevenson: I've got them on right now.

Tim Grover: Yeah, I noticed it when I first came in. Let's take Jeff Bezos, everybody knows who that is, it's the gentleman that- Amazon.

When he first got in, "I'm going to sit here, I'm going to deliver packages to people's homes in two weeks." And if you were satisfied, he'd have been out of business.

Then he came up and said, "You know what? I'm going to do it in a week." Then, "I'm going to do it in two days."

"Now you know what? I'm going to have these little things flying over people's houses and dropping packages off on the same day."

"You know what? That's not even good enough. I'm going to have it so you can have it in an hour."

You know, it's always trying to figure out how to- knowing there's going to be bumps in the road, and once there are bumps in the road, you know you're on the right road.

And constantly figure out a way to do things a little bit better, a little bit more efficiently. Not afraid to try new things, not afraid to be embarrassed if things don't work out.

There's not a single individual on this planet that's had 100% success at everything that they've done. Doesn't happen.

You look at all these individuals, they've had some massive failures. Massive.

Shawn Stevenson: You know, before the show even started, I just kept saying there are so many things I want to ask you about. And man, I want to talk to you about training, but the mental side of it, because I think that there's a lot of value to extract from that, and what you shared also in your book, but just I'm curious myself. And we're going to do that right after this quick break. So sit tight, we'll be right back.

Welcome back, and we're talking with the one and only Tim Grover about his incredible book 'Relentless.'

And before the break I mentioned it's not the tactics with the training, and he mentioned this as well. You could throw the entire program out, but it's operating with instincts, but also in your book you write, 'My goal is to make it so challenging in the gym that everything that happens outside the gym seems easy.'

What did you mean by that?

Tim Grover: It was something I actually learned from Michael. Michael practiced so hard that the games were easy. He practiced so hard.

And it was funny, very few practices did Michael and Scottie ever play on the same team because Michael knew Scottie was the one guy- because top defensive player law that he would challenge him every single day.

So it's being prepared for no matter what is going to be thrown at you, not only physically, but mentally.

So you've put in the time, you've put in the effort, you've put in the research. You know, go back to when- and this is a great lesson for the kids, but even we had this stuff when we were in school.

You had a test, you studied for the test, you'd go to school, you'd be like, "No problem." The day you may be a little nervous when you go in.

You got a test, you didn't study. "Man, I hope we get a snow day." Well, out in San Diego, you're not going to get a snow day, but where both you and I are from, the Midwest. "Man, I hope we have a substitute teacher."

Shawn Stevenson: Something.

Tim Grover: "I hope there's a fire alarm that day." You weren't prepared. You weren't prepared. You have to be so well prepared that it makes everything else easy.

Go back to the fitness thing, and people always say that working out is uncomfortable. Working out is supposed to be uncomfortable. Right?

But how uncomfortable is it with type two diabetes? How uncomfortable is it carrying an extra fifty pounds, not only on your heart, but on your joints?

How uncomfortable is it with high cholesterol? How uncomfortable is it having achy joints? If you really go back and think about it, and you know this better than I do, how many things both physically and mentally could you just alleviate by exercising, by eating better, and getting the proper amount of sleep?

Shawn Stevenson: It's the root of almost everything.

Tim Grover: Right. But that's what I'm talking about, being so well prepared. Those individuals that are so well prepared, you don't think they take their workout seriously?

Your most successful entrepreneurs in business, the majority of them, have a very strict regimen of exercising. It's part of their protocol.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.

Tim Grover: You can look it up, alright? They eat well, and they get the proper amount of rest. You know? Everyone talks to me, "Yeah, I work eighteen hours a day."

Listen, just because you put in long hours and hard work, that doesn't guarantee success. It's what are you putting the long hours in, and knowing when to say, "Hey, listen."

You have an individual- you can be effective for a certain amount of time. Yeah, you might be able to do two days in a row where you've done eighteen hours, but then after that, is your mind really functioning? Is your body really functioning at an optimal level?

Shawn Stevenson: Right, you've got to recover.

Tim Grover: You have to recover. Kobe used to- everybody thinks Kobe Bryant used to take 1,000 shots. "I took 1,000 shots." He didn't take 1,000 shots every day.

He understood that some days, this is what I'm going to do. The next days I'm here. These are the individuals, but they always listen. You know?

The one thing, and we talked about this earlier, how do things become easier? How things become easier is when you start to listen to individuals that have expertise in other fields and you put that in action.

My first professional client was Michael Jordan, alright? He knew I was never going to play. I've never scored a single point in an NBA game.

Now, I've scored a basket in every NBA arena when it's empty, I've taken the shots, but he knew this individual has an expertise in something that can benefit him.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.

Tim Grover: And he was willing to listen. And when you're willing to listen, you're willing to adapt, you're willing to overcome, things become easier. They become easier when you expect them- when you stop expecting them to become easier.

Shawn Stevenson: Awesome. Awesome. I'm starting to really hear that listening is a super power, and paying attention is a super power. These were the things that you were doing early on, and now to hear this from- again, people that we see as literally legends, the greatest to ever do it.

They listened, you know? Having the audacity, when you're as great as you are, to actually listen. And I think it's just this kind of internal fire again, to just want to get better, and to do whatever it takes to get better.

But asking this question-

Tim Grover: I'm going to stop you right there.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Grover: Here's an easy thing, alright? If you believe in a higher power, or an individual, however we were created. How many ears do you have?

Shawn Stevenson: I've got two.

Tim Grover: How many mouths do you have?

Shawn Stevenson: One.

Tim Grover: Listen twice as much as you talk. Listen twice as much as you talk.

Shawn Stevenson: Simple enough. Simple is enough. I've found recently- and I've been, again, just paying attention.

You know what's so funny? I don't know if I've ever shared this on the show before, but I grew up- I was in different environments, you know? And I tended to be- I tended to not fit in because of my background, and being biracial.

In one community, I was in the minority, and then I'd go to the complete opposite. So a predominantly white school, then a predominantly black school.

And through that process, I just kind of set back in the cut, you know? And I probably would be considered a shy kid, and so when people, again, are asking like, "Well, how did you get to this place? What was your path to success?"

I just sat back and listened. I was very quiet, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't engaged. I was paying attention to what was going on around me.

And I love this quote that God doesn't call the qualified, God qualifies the called. And so I kind of feel like my life was qualifying me for what I am doing today.

And it was those moments where I might think that it was a disadvantage to not fit in, but I was just sitting back and I was listening and I was paying attention.

I was paying attention to people's mannerisms, I was paying attention to how people are moving, and talking, and relating to each other, and just taking mental notes.

And it wasn't like super conscious, but it's just because I was listening. And it might have even been a result of fear, and this is something else you talk about.

We're going to have fears, they're going to be there. You're going to feel nervous, but I think you mentioned to Michael one time- because he talks about even him being nervous before big games, and you mentioned something about getting the butterflies moving in one direction.

Tim Grover: Yeah, it's funny, everyone says- being nervous is a part of life, alright? It happens. It's something that- it's an instinctive thing.

So a lot of people can't control it and they say, "Man, I always have this thing. Man, I've got butterflies in my stomach."

I said, "That's great you've got butterflies. Make sure they're all going in the same direction." You control which way you want the butterflies to go.

It's just like your thought process. If you've got thoughts in here, and you've got them bouncing around all over the place, you don't have clarity up here. You don't have clarity, alright?

You have to get- whatever direction you choose to go in, you have to have clarity about that direction. And once you have clarity about that direction from a physical standpoint and from a mental standpoint.

People always say, "I want to move forward." Great, you want to move forward. You want to move forward and upward. You just don't want to move forward.

If you're only moving forward, you're following the pack. The idea is to get away from the pack. The idea is to separate yourself from individuals. The idea is to separate yourself from the pack.

The better you do for yourself - and this is where society is a little bit off - I disagree with this. Everyone always says, "You need to help other individuals. You need to be available for this."

I agree with that 100% but not at the stake of not taking care of yourself. Because if you can take care of yourself, that allows you to do more for yourself, and it allows you to do more for others.

But if you don't take care of yourself, you can't do more for others. So sometimes in order to give more, you have to be a little bit more selfish.

And if you become a little bit more selfish in the right way, you can do more for yourself, which is going to allow you to do more for individuals.

So people that are always telling you, "You're selfish. You're selfish," those are the individuals that you're constantly doing stuff for, and that are taking up your time.

And they have to understand, "Listen, I need time for myself." Just like you don't reach the subscribers and the status where you're at in this business unless you have time to work on yourself, unless you have time to work on your craft, and the more time you have to work on yourself, the more time you've got a chance to work on your craft, the more knowledge and information you've been able to help other individuals.

Otherwise this thing could be- you could be talking about the same topic that hundreds of fitness people talk about every single day. It's the same thing over and over and over again.

You've taken it and you've gone in a direction that's very difficult for people to go in because it requires you to research and put in the time.

And the thing I said, it requires you to put in that time and effort, and a lot of people forget how important you is.

Shawn Stevenson: Oh man. Man, that's a mic drop right there. Man, that's so real. You know, again, there are so many things I want to ask you about.

But having this in front of us, this opportunity to get better, to improve, we're also going to fail. And all of these incredible athletes that you've worked with over the years, they've failed numerous times, but they don't see failure in the same way that the average person does.

So can you talk a little bit about that; what you've seen consistently with them?

Tim Grover: Failure is a learning process. Alright? It's never failure- it's only failure if you don't learn from it. If you learn from it, you can never consider it failure, alright?

So that's how you've got to kind of look at it. These individuals that- everybody's going to fail, and so you're not going to hit every game winning shot, you're not going to throw the perfect pass for the touchdown every single time.

But are you willing to learn from that process? You know, people always say- I love this, they say this all the time. You learn more from losing than you do from winning.

Your top of the top people learn just as much from winning as they do from losing. It's a constant learning process, and if you have a constant learning process, are you really failing?

You only fail when the learning process stops. You know, we have a big thing about- especially you have kids now, how old are your boys?

Shawn Stevenson: One is eighteen and the other is seven.

Tim Grover: Alright. They know it all?

Shawn Stevenson: Absolutely not. Not even close.

Tim Grover: But it's funny, the learning process starts when you realize you think you know it all.

Shawn Stevenson: Dangerous.

Tim Grover: That's the dangerous part. So failure is- you decide if you failed at something. Alright? That's your decision, and if you decide you failed at something, you figure out a different way to get that end result.

But as long as you continue to constantly learn, and don't let that failure beat you up. There's people that are constantly- something that they failed at many, many years ago, and it kind of just continues to eat at them over and over and over again.

You're never going to forget about it, but you can't constantly think about it, you know? The greats, they remember their failures, they could tell you to the detail.

You talk to the greatest entrepreneurs, they'll tell you every business idea that didn't work well, every stock that they bought that didn't go, and what do they do? They use it as a learning thing and they laugh at it.

Did they forget about it? No, but they don't constantly think about it. People that don't know how to use failure, they're constantly thinking about that failure moment, and when you're constantly thinking about the failure moment, you're not in the moment.

Your greatest athletes and your greatest business people - and I say this all the time - thinking to them is a distraction because if you're thinking, you're not in the moment.

In order to be in that 1% - not even that 1%, that 0.0001%, the zone is not about thinking. The zone is about clarity, it's about being able to let your instincts do everything that they're meant to do. It's not thinking about the failures, it's you're in the moment.

How many times can you talk to an individual that they can tell you, "I'm in the moment"? How many?

Shawn Stevenson: Not today.

Tim Grover: Yeah, not today. Not with all the- and this all ties back to what we talked about earlier. It's with the distractions. You get distracted so easily, you're never in the moment.

And I'm not talking about just work. I'm talking about when you're with your family, when you're with your kids, whatever you're doing, be in that moment.

Because if you're not in that moment, you're going to miss that moment, and sometimes you don't get that missed opportunity or that missed moment back. That's a failure.

Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. Man. Tim, I just want to talk to you forever, to be real. This is just phenomenal. And I'm so grateful for you taking the time to be somebody who's dedicated to mastery, and continuing to- even now just impacting the lives of so many people.

And it's a powerful statement to say, "My first professional client- my first professional athlete client was Michael Jordan." And that says a lot about you, and your character, and putting yourself in position to have the impact that you've had.

And so I just- seriously, as much as a person can from sitting from the place that I am, I think you're amazing and I think that your story is just remarkable, and I'm excited to see what you do next.

Tim Grover: Thank you. You know, I'm really touched, and for all the listeners out there and everybody that's watching, you don't know the relentless pursuit of getting this thing done.

How many times have we had to schedule, and reschedule, and so forth? But when you give an individual your word saying, "Hey, we're going to make this happen," you make it happen. Thank you very much.

Shawn Stevenson: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Tim.

Tim Grover: Appreciate it.

Shawn Stevenson: Can you let everybody know where they can find your book and where they can connect with you online?

Tim Grover: Sure, the website is Our Instagram and Twitter is @AttackAthletics. The book is available on the website, it's available on Amazon, Audible, paperback, hardcover, whatever you want.

And then we also have a training platform that we've put together called the Relentless System, which is a virtual training program.

You could literally have me with you 24/7. I don't know if that excites you or pisses you off, but hey, we all need coaching. That's the one thing about it.

Shawn Stevenson: Absolutely.

Tim Grover: If the greatest individuals- everyone needs a coach to get better. Everyone needs a coach to hold you accountable. Those are the two things.

If you can get yourself better and you hold yourself accountable, at some point you're going to get to the level that you are meant to be.

Shawn Stevenson: Absolutely. Thank you, Tim. Everybody, Tim Grover. Why not learn from the best? Why not learn from the best coach?

And I've got so many nuggets of wisdom from this episode myself, and it's just a reiteration of a couple of things as well.

To really strive to be a lifetime student. When you think that you know everything, that's when you get particularly dangerous. Not in the good way, either.

We're talking about a danger to yourself and your success, and your potential, and your happiness. And also a danger to people around you.

Nobody wants to be around somebody who knows it all, first of all. And I've been encouraging for many years, especially a part of this community, really embrace being a lifetime student.

Right? Embrace not knowing, embrace that attitude of discovery, and you'll find so much joy in that, and the continuous unfolding of yourself and your potential, and you'll find that you don't bump into ceilings as much as the next person because of this simple mindset shift, of being a lifetime student.

Never act like you've got everything figured out, because you don't. Alright? And also, grow yourself. Grow yourself as a person.

When he talked about this statement, and I'll share it again. 'My goal is to make it so challenging in the gym that everything that happens outside the gym seems easy."

Right? So it's strategically putting yourself in position where you put yourself under some struggle, and some strain, and some opposition so that the other things in life are actually quite a bit easier, and you grow yourself as a person.

And so what I mean by this, if we've got a scale of human potential, we've got a level one you could be at, or a level ten person, and ten is like Dalai Lama status, or whoever you want to put here.

You know, just ultimate enlightenment, and continuous joy. And one is like you're just trying to survive.

If you're at a level three as a person, you've worked on yourself and you got yourself to a level three, and a level four problem happens, it's going to destroy your entire life. Right?

If you've worked and you've made yourself into a level five person, and a level three problem happens, this can really take you down. You can be out of commission for a long time, but you can recover.

If you grow yourself and you're a level eight person on that scale - and I'm just giving an example, a framework - and a level four problem happens, you could probably handle that on your lunch break. Alright?

So it's really, again, about putting in those reps outside of the situation, growing yourself as a person so that you can show up better, and to achieve what's really possible for you.

Make sure to pick up a copy of 'Relentless.' Again, one of the books- the first book that I've read with my son, Jordan, and it was really a great process to be able to talk about it, and go back and forth in some of the principles in here.

And ultimately again, if you're going to learn from somebody, why not learn from the best? And definitely check out Tim, follow him, and make sure if you got some value out of this episode, let me know.

Tag me on social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all that good stuff, and let me know what you thought about the episode. Okay? I appreciate it so very much.

We've got some incredible episodes coming up, so make sure to be ready. Alright? Take care, have an amazing day, and I'll talk with you soon.

And for more after the show, make sure to head over to That's where you can find all of the show notes, you can find transcriptions, videos for each episode, and if you've got a comment you can leave me a comment there as well.

And please make sure to head over to iTunes and leave us a rating to let everybody know that the show is awesome, and I appreciate that so much.

And take care, I promise to keep giving you more powerful, empowering, great content to help you transform your life. Thanks for tuning in.

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