SHAWN STEVENSON: Welcome to The Model Health Show. This is fitness and nutrition expert Shawn Stevenson, and I'm so grateful for you tuning in with me today. On this episode, we're going to be talking about eating for energy, but most importantly, we're going to be diving in on some of the things are siphoning our energy in our culture today that most people have no idea about. And we're doing this with somebody who is the walking, talking representation of energy. He's the walking, talking representation of what's possible. He just turned 75 years old, and I'm telling you, he is bouncing all over the place. He's somebody that I've hung out with and I've had the opportunity to learn from, and he is just a true pioneer in the health and wellness space period, but being somebody who's masterful in the domain of nutrition, but also other lifestyle factors in what constitutes longevity. Real longevity, when we're talking about longevity, yes, we can kick the science around back and forth, but in reality, we need to actually learn and listen to people who've done it, who are people that are demonstrating with their life, real longevity.

These are the people that I'm looking to. Somebody who is 65, 70, 75, 80 years old, who has robust energy, who has great body composition and physical health, and who's trying to get busy. Even having a healthy sex life as you get older, all these things that in our culture, we're led to believe that these things are simply not possible. It's just a steady decline and there's nothing you can do about it. Well, I'm here to tell you today, and our special guest is going to fill you in on, that is anything but the case and what it's about today, as we're existing in a culture that has stacked conditions against us. And what we have the opportunity to do is to realize the power that we have to create our own culture and to stack conditions in our favor. And it starts with our own personal culture, our family culture, then it branches out from there to the larger culture scape that we all exist in. There are these cultural containers that have such an influence on us that we don't even know that they're happening. It's sort of like the air that we're breathing, we don't even realize that it's there, that it's just infiltrating and it's everywhere within our environment, it's just... It is.

It's kind of like a fish being in water, it's just it is, but the fish suddenly knows when it's out of water, for example. The same thing when our oxygen is pulled away. What can we do to stack conditions in our environment so that these things are on automatic? It's just there, it's just a part of our well-being, our fitness, it's just integrated into the culture. We don't even know that we're doing it or experiencing it, because it's such a normalized part of things, whereas today, our culture, as you know, we've normalized sickness, we've normalized obesity, we've normalized chronic disease, we've normalized sedentary behavior, we've normalized sleep deprivation and excessive stress, but these things we've normalized are anything but normal. With these things being normalized in our culture, for you not subscribing to those things, you're weird. You're a weirdo. Alright, you're somebody who is not succumbing to those things, you're essentially allergic to average right now. And it's a wonderful thing to be weird right now. But with that said, we also want to be a driver of change and to create a culture of wellness so that we're not so weird anymore when we are taking care of our bodies, taking care of our minds, taking care of each other.

I believe that we can have this shift take place in our lifetime, but it's going to require people who are trailblazers and who are the weird ones who are saying, "You know what, this is not okay. We can do so much better. We can be so much better." And that's what we have for you today. Now, our special guest has well over 10 books, major published books that are out there impacting lives. And one of our collective favorite nutritional implements is something that's been utilized for literally thousands of years, now we have a tremendous amount of peer-reviewed evidence demonstrating its efficacy. And it's even more remarkable at a time like this.

A study published in the European Journal of Nutrition uncovered that in addition to downregulating inflammatory cytokines, curcumin, the active ingredient in turmeric, has been found to upregulate the activity of adiponectin and other satiety-related hormones. Turmeric has been found to improve insulin sensitivity, reduce blood fats and directly act upon our fat cells. There is a synergy there. And another very remarkable thing about turmeric and curcumin are its anti-angiogenesis properties. Angiogenesis is the ability of cells to kind of collect and gathers up a blood supply source, but the rub is that cancer cells do this as well. Tumors are siphoning and grabbing up, creating this connection to feed themselves by creating vascular connections. That's called angiogenesis. Certain foods have been found to have selective anti-angiogenic properties that target cancer cells cutting off their blood supply so that they simply cannot get the nutrition that they're siphoning up in order for them to grow.

Turmeric is one of those things, truly remarkable. And this is one of the things that's also highlighted by another great friend and colleague and somebody who's been a guest on The Model Health Show, Dr. William Lee, and his work at Harvard, and he's actually the president of the angiogenesis foundation, and this is one of the things that he's talked about with me on the show, but also in private as well. We talked about the remarkable things really seen with turmeric. It is that special. Again, at a time like this when inflammation is so top of mind, the cytokine storm, the inflammatory cytokine, and again, this inflammation process, there are things proactively that we can do that are not just helpful in that scenario, but helpful to the overall metabolic health of the individual.

And so I highly encourage you to make sure that you have a turmeric/curcumin concentrate, to make sure that you're getting these benefits. It's very simple. And the one that I have in my cabinet that I utilize most often is from Paleo Valley, and it's because they have organic turmeric, and they're combining it with the traditional things that act as bio potentiators that make the absorption and effectiveness even better, like organic ginger, cloves, and organic black pepper. The compounds found in black pepper specifically has been found to increase turmeric's effectiveness by up to 2000%.

Remarkable, remarkable. Go to paleovalley.com/model, and you're going to get a special 15% off their turmeric complex, and you should already know that I'm a major fan of their essential C complex as well. There's nothing else like it. There are snacks, there are great foods for travel and just for being out and about. These are things that I travel with that I keep in my Dora the explorer backpack when I'm out on the road. Nothing else really comes close in that domain, great stuff for the kids as well. Go check them out, paleovalley.com. It's P-A-L-E-O-V-A-L-L-E-Y.com/model for 15% off, and now let's get to the Apple Podcast review of the week.

ITUNES REVIEW: Another five-star review titled "Shawn is the Bomb," by Callala8". Shawn is a phenomenal interviewer. Always manages to ask the right questions, but never sounds rehearsed. His passion for health and wellness shines through every episode, and I am enamored by his ability to translate complex ideas into easily digestible bites of knowledge. I have been listening for years now and his content has never let me down. Keep doing what you do. Your authenticity is unmatched. Thank you for helping me to transfer my life in an educated manner. I appreciate you so much.”

SHAWN STEVENSON: Wow, that is just amazing. Thank you so much for seeing me. Thank you so much for leaving that review. It really means so much. And everybody, if you have to do so, please pop over to Apple Podcast and leave a review for the Model Health Show. And on that note, let's get to our special guest and topic of the day. Our guest today is Dr. Jonny Bowden, and he's a nationally known expert on weight loss and metabolic health, and he's been featured on the Dr. Oz show, The Doctors, and practically every major television network, and he's a best-selling author of a myriad of books, including Living Low Carb, The Great Cholesterol Myth, Smart Fat, and many others. Dr. Bowden is also a former professional pianist and conductor. He's earned six certifications in personal training and fitness as well. He has a Master's degree in psychology, a Ph.D. in nutrition, and is board certified by the American College of Nutrition. He really knows his stuff, and he's the walking talking example of what's possible. Let's jump into this conversation with the amazing Dr. Jonny Bowden, my friend.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: My friend.

SHAWN STEVENSON: So good to see you again.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's great to see you. The only way we get to see each other is over here.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Hey listen, we've hung out. We got meals together.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: We have. We have, and we'll do it again.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And when I think about you, I think about energy. That's what I think about. You just had a birthday recently.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I did.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You just turned another golden age, 75 years old.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I don't know how golden it is but okay.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Platinum, let's be honest, alright. And you're out here just making such an impact, creating, writing, teaching, it's just, it's so remarkable. You are really the model that we all need to aspire towards, to be...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: That's very sweet of you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Especially in our society.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Very frightening that anybody would aspire to be me, 'cause if you lived in my head, you'd know that's not a great place to aspire to, but I think we all probably feel that way.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, yeah. But again, just when I see you, I think of energy.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You're bubbling with energy. And obviously, you've been somebody who's focused so much on nutrition in the last few decades, and I would love... Because this is one of the things a lot of people ask about, what can I do to have more energy? So, let's talk about...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They ask about it all the time. It's one of the most common things when I was in practice as a nutritionist, I think it was the number one question.

SHAWN STEVENSON: The same here when people were coming in, "what can I take?" That would usually be...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's always, "What can I take?"

SHAWN STEVENSON: That would usually be the question.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's always, "What can I take?"

SHAWN STEVENSON: Well, let's dive in and talk about from a diet perspective. What are some of the things for us to consider if we want to have more energy?

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Would you mind if before we go right to the diet, we talk about some of the things that are not diet-related. Some of the things that are not necessarily nutrition-related that I have noticed, for example, is the impact my sleep has on energy. So, within the last few years, in addition to the fanatic nutrition that I've kind of focused on, I've started monitoring my sleep. I used the Oura ring. I used the pods, it's probably over the top, but all of us do that stuff. I take a lot of vitamins that are over the top too. And the monitoring of my sleep has shown me the incredible impact that sleep has on energy, and I had a teacher once in graduate school who said when you... Regarding trying to explain a phenomenon, he said, "If you hear hoofbeats outside your window, don't start by looking for zebras."

You look for the obvious. So, I'd have all these clients when I was at Equinox and when I was in private practice say, "Oh man, I don't have energy? What can I take? What can I take for energy?" And usually, when people don't have energy, the explanation is the simplest one, it's don't look for zebras. Don't look for some weird allergy to asparagus, it's probably that you ain't sleeping enough. And when I noticed it, 'cause I watched and tracked my own. And I thought when I started that journey, this particular part of the energy equation, the sleep part, my six hours, which is what I had programmed in my head, was fine. I went to bed at midnight, I woke up at six, whatever it was, I thought I was fine.

Now that I start looking at that and seeing what the numbers show at six hours, what resting heart rate is, what respiratory rate is, what your heart rate variability is. They monitor all these things, and I see they're all in the pay attention zone. And then as soon as my sleep started being seven and a half hours or so, more time in bed, I see the numbers changing and I see actual metrics, and they agree with each other, the two monitoring systems. And then I go, "You know what, I really feel good today." And I look at it, and I go, "Yes, it was more sleep."

And that one change, everyone talks about the nutrition end of it, and of course that's important, and you could be eating the greatest diet in the world, but if you're sleeping three at night, maybe you do better than somebody who's eating a sh*tty diet and sleeps three hours a night. But one way or the other, if you're sleeping three or four hours a night, you are going to develop problems. And in fact, when I wrote the book, The Most Effective Ways to Live Longer, I did an entire section on sleep. And there is a literature which I didn't even know about till I did that book that I read about; you can actually create insulin resistance in a person by sleep deprivation for two nights.

A couple of nights of sleep deprivation, and by sleep deprivation, I don't mean some torturous thing that they do at the CIA when they're trying to get prisoners to... I'm talking about what you and I, what we do, what people normally do. They shave an hour off here, they shave an hour off here, they have a three-night or a four-night one, they're stressed out and a couple nights of that, and you literally change your insulin sensitivity. And I wanted to talk about that today, 'cause I know you want to talk about metabolic health, and to me, that's synonymous with insulin resistance. So, I'm always looking at what affects insulin resistance, 'cause that's what makes you fat, and that's what drains your energy, so what can we do to reverse that, and one of the things is we can get some sleep hygiene going, and it's not that hard to do.

SHAWN STEVENSON: That's right, and you know, this as well is an epidemic right now, sleep deprivation.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

SHAWN STEVENSON: We've got about 115 million folks are regularly sleep-deprived in the United States.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: You wrote a book about this.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I did. So, this is a first... Which is crazy for me to say this, it was the first sleep wellness-related book to become an international bestseller, which is crazy...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And it deserved to be.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you. At this time in human history, because we should probably have this dialed in at this point, all of our so-called advances, but like you said, start with the obvious.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: That's the obvious when you start there, and people don't really know what I mean when I say sleep hygiene. And these things are measurable. I can show you my app on the Oura Ring. You can see it, but it means setting the environment for anybody who's interested in trying to improve this, it means setting the temperature correctly. It means turning the goddamn TV off and not falling asleep to it. It means not doing your work on your electronics in the bedroom. It means making it dark and that includes cutting out the little VCR lights or whatever the DVR.

SHAWN STEVENSON: VCR Jonny. You're dating yourself.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I sure did. But you know what I mean. The electronics, and the Spotify, and the Apple TV, even those little glowing lights have been shown to decrease sleep efficacy in studies. So, you really make it dark, you make it cool, 68 degrees is great, you stop looking at the electronic stuff a half an hour before you go to bed. And if you need to add more hours, you don't do it by staying in bed longer, you do it by putting them on front-loaded. Studies are very clear on that. You just stay in bed later. It doesn't really work, you got to start... If you go to bed at 10:00 start 9:30, if you go to bed at midnight, try 11:30, but that's where you're adding on. And you do a few of those little things, and man, your sleep improves, and your energy improves. Boom.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, it all ties together. I love that you talked about the insulin resistance that takes place so quickly because this is one of those... We tend to think about it in tunnel vision. I know being food guys, its diet-related, but...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It is.

SHAWN STEVENSON: It is.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: But there's lot of other things that can impact insulin.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Exactly. And so, it's like governing our insulin sensitivity, so many things with our hormones, leptin, cortisol, the list goes on and on, and so it's a primary point of emphasis. So now to pivot a little bit. One of the things that I've been talking about because just like us having all this wonderful sleep hygiene if you're deficient in key nutrients that are needed to build your sleep-related hormones and neurotransmitters, that can be a major struggle point as well. So, this brings us to the conversation about food and some ideas for us to consider in relationship to having more energy there as well.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah, well, we have really been laboring under a lot of misapprehensions when it comes to nutrition. My tagline is the nutrition myth buster, and I never have a shortage of work to do when it comes to the myths about human nutrition. Just did go down a fast rabbit hole. The American Heart Association a couple of months ago released their new guidelines. That'll keep us busy for six months. Don't eat tropical oils and make sure you're eating plenty of whole grains. It just goes on and on and on with the same tired talking points that have made us fat, sick, tired, and depressed at epidemic rates. So, we could talk about that, but in terms of food and nutrition, we have to really unlearn a lot of what we've learned in the '80s and '90s. I think Authority Magazine interviewed me and they were like five ways they wanted... They have a series of five things you need to know about whatever the subject they're interviewing, and in my case, it was five things you need to know to maintain a healthy weight.

My number two thing, after the first one was to eat real food, that was number one, but the second one was forget everything you learned about nutrition in the '80s and '90s. Everything. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Well, maybe not. We should eat low-fat diets. Well, definitely not. We should stay away from tropical oils. Yeah, no. So, there's a lot of things that we have to really unlearn about that. We were... I was a trainer at 1998 at Equinox when we opened and as we talked about, and the advice we gave. Mea culpa, I was one of the people telling people, breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Eat every two hours, snack, graze, mini-meals. That's crazy advice.

Now, breakfast may be the most important, and this is where we need to get into the how you personalize this information because there are truths in there. If you're a kid in Appalachia, and you're going to school on an empty stomach, there's good studies that that breakfast really makes a difference in your performance, your attitude, your attention, your behavior, all those things. So yeah, as a general rule, when you're trying to talk about people who are going to school with bag of... Like in The Wire, they'd go off with a bag of Doritos and a Pepsi for breakfast. Yes. Yes, breakfast is very important. But for people like us who have the luxury of trying to get top performance out of our bodies and actually have the luxury of finding organic food or finding gyms and exercise things and climbing walls and all these things that are really not available to everyone.

For us, it may very well be that breakfast is the worst meal of the day, and many people have found that who have experimented with intermittent fasting. This has been one of the things I discovered over the pandemic, and I'd love to talk about that because it's a huge thing for not only energy, for weight control, and metabolic health, something very, very important. And what I discovered was that not eating sometimes can give you more energy than eating, and I think a lot of people have found that by themselves. They have noticed that. Way before your time there was a book called The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet. It was very big in the '80s, and you can look it up, The Carbohydrate Addicts.

They had a whole series of books. And it was developed by a doctor, one was a Ph.D., and one was an MD. And the Ph.D., Rachel had a weight problem, always had a weight problem. And she was following all that advice, and she was eating five meals a day and starting with breakfast and all that and had cravings all the time and just could not manage her weight. And the way they discovered this carbohydrate addicts diet thing in the '80s by the way, was one day she didn't eat until 6:00. She just had a very busy schedule in her Ph.D. program, whatever it was, and she didn't manage to eat. And she noticed that not only wasn't she very hungry, but she also didn't have a lot of cravings. So, she eats this meal at 6 o'clock, and she notices the next day that her weight's down and bloat is down, and she's, "I wonder what this could be." Anyway, with a lot of self-experimentation, they came up with this notion of carbohydrate addiction.

And much investigation later, they realized that insulin was playing a role. This is way before this became part of the conversation for everyone interested in health, and no one even knew what insulin was in the general public then. But they realized that what was happening was that that pattern of eating was constantly elevating insulin, which as you know is the fat-storage hormone. It's also known as the appetite hormone, so it really does not only create its own cravings, but it also tends to make you store fat and make it very difficult to lose it. And by eating less or by eating at precise times of day, she was able to control it.

She didn't even know what it was she was controlling until they started looking into it more deeply. And they came up with this idea of eating only protein and vegetables during the day and having one meal with carbohydrates at night. That is probably a very dated concept, but the thing they were on to is not dated. The thing they were onto is how do we manage our insulin. And if you're not managing your insulin, you're not managing your metabolic health. It's that simple. I actually, in writing the fasting course that I wrote recently, I investigated a lot of other people's work in fasting, including Jason Fung. And one of the things he does in his program is to tell people, "I don't care how many carbs you're eating. I don't care how much protein you're eating. I actually don't care how many calories you're eating. I want to know one thing and one thing only about your food, and that is what effect does it have on your insulin?" They actually say that.

And that's actually something that I've adopted when I do occasionally coach somebody or work with someone, privately. I go, "It's not count of carbs. There's one thing we want to know." And unfortunately, because we can't measure insulin, we have to use a surrogate which is blood sugar. And that's why I always have clients, if I possibly can get them to do it, to get a continuous glucose monitor, 'cause that's our surrogate for what's really happening to blood sugar and insulin. I wear them periodically. Every couple of months, I get one of them, put them on, just track it for myself to see what's happening with blood sugar, because this is really the key to metabolic health that we're talking about right here. And to bring it back to energy, which is what you asked about in the first place, it's also the key to energy.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I have one on right now.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Do you really?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Levels.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Mine just finished, my two-week. They only last two weeks so mine just ended two days ago.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Levels.link/model. Skip the list. That's L-E-V-E-L-S.link/model, and this is giving... Like, listen, you are one of the foremost experts in the world on this topic. Now, you shifted things to specifically let's focus on the insulin response for you as an individual versus what this cookie-cutter thing of, it's supposed to be this way or that way. Now, you said this is one of the most remarkable things that's been said on this show.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: What's that?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Now listen, I'm going to say this again, but we have to keep this in context and understand how profound this statement is. You said that not eating can give you more energy than eating. Again, just keep this in context, and I want to dive into this more because what both of us were taught... I paid for this education at a conventional university.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Me and I taught people what we were going to say.

SHAWN STEVENSON: It's a very superficial look at what food is, and calories. We look at calories, that's the energy. If you want to have energy, eat calories, eat food, and it's looking through things with tunnel vision because it's negating human digestion and the fact that of all the things in our lives that require energy, that siphon energy, it's eating. When we're putting food into our system, it is a very energy-intensive process. It requires so much of our body's attention to turn that food into human tissues. It's miraculous, and it's not like David Blaine coming along and doing some things. It's an actual arduous process because we're making food, whether it's a wild-caught salmon or Twinkie, it's turning that into human tissue and quote, "energy" specifically in the form of this energy storage. So, for you to say that not eating can potentially give folks more energy than eating, that's a very profound statement.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Well, think about it, and if you've ever done a fast, even attempted to do a fast and you've managed to stay away from food for a day, what happens in the second day? Everybody reports this, you're flying off the walls with energy. They're clear and their minds are bright, and they're like, No, you can't... " Shawn, obviously, we have to put it in context. This isn't a rule for all time, don't walk away and say that crazy nutritionist said, "If I don't eat, I'll be fine." I'm not saying don't eat all the time. We're talking about how sometimes not eating can actually stimulate your metabolism in a way that you actually perceive yourself as being way more sharp, way more focused, way more optimistic, way more engaged, and... If I were... I'm going to do a big thing like the Dr. Oz Show or The Model Health Show, I'm not going to eat a big meal before I come on there. Would you? Would anybody?

You want to get there, you want to be there lean, mean and hungry, and on fire. So, a big meal is just going to make me want to sit like back after the Thanksgiving meal. And of course, everybody gets tired, because as you say, there's a huge amount of energy required indigestion. I'm not suggesting to people that they don't eat. I'm saying that some of the tried-and-true mantras that we gave people in the '80s and '90s have turned out not only to not be true but sometimes to be counter-productive. Eating every two hours is a really stupid idea. Maybe there are exceptions, who are Olympic athletes, football players or people who are training and doing...

I'm talking about for the average person, all that's doing is, number one, constantly requiring more insulin, so insulin is always on call, it's always up there, it's always got to get rid of the sugar in your bloodstream that comes up because you just ate every two hours, and you can't go an hour without a power bar. And number two, it prevents you from using your fat stores as energy because you're constantly giving it new fuel, you're eating a power bar every two hours. Why the hell would it go to your fat stores. So, all of that has to do, not only with energy but with digestion and weight loss, and weight gain. And I hate to keep coming back to insulin resistance, but I honestly believe this is the other pandemic that nobody's talking about. And I know we're not going to touch too much, the situation in California with COVID and stuff, but if you look at the statistics of younger people who have been felled by this virus, 61% of them obese, and I would argue that they say, "Oh, they had no one condition... They had no previous conditions." I'm not so sure. 80... The statistics on this in the United States, 88% of people have some degree of insulin resistance. How is that no pre-existing condition?

So, it's a very important thing to me to alert people in our book, The Great Cholesterol Myth, what we found, when really looking at this, is that insulin resistance is a better predictor of heart disease than cholesterol is, way better. And they've known this since the '70s. And insulin resistance can be treated, prevented, and reversed with diet and exercise, and lifestyle. Dude, you don't need a drug.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you for bringing this up because we're not looking at what are the underlying risk factors, and we haven't, since the very beginning of all of this.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: No.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And as you mentioned... I even looked at this from the perspective of healthcare workers because we tend to think that these folks are on the frontline, they're charging into the situation, their exposure is going to be at a high place, and it still demonstrates that this condition is not as indiscriminate as the media would lead you to believe, as so-called health officials would lead you to believe. The CDC did an analysis, they found that nine out of 10 healthcare workers who were hospitalized with COVID-19 had at least one pre-existing chronic disease. Almost 75% of them were obese. Alright. It is insane. How are we not talking about this?

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I don't know why.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And then we stress this out to the general population. But this is high exposure, higher risk, it's not indiscriminate. And we got to look at what is the underlying mechanism here. Blood sugar has a major role in this, insulin inflammation because these are two drivers or regulators of inflammation.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: 100%.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And this isn't being talked about enough at all.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Not at all. Not at all. And we could talk about why it's not being talked about, but it isn't. And look, I heard something on Joe Rogan the other day, which is... He said, which I thought was very, very accurate and very profoundly true. He said, "You can't take a 55-year-old guy, who's a fifth-grade teacher and has neglected his own health for a long time, and he's little bit obese, is getting there, 39-inch waist, whatever, and he doesn't exercise and tell him that underlying condition is what you need to... You need to fix that, you need to start going to the gym, start running around the block, started changing your diet." It's... He needs... That guy needs to be vaccinated or needs to use whatever is possible because you can't now put him on a program of metabolic health." But why are we not talking about this as a preventive, as something that we could be doing right now for everybody else, and we could all start to reverse our metabolic health so that we would be less likely... And I'm not just talking about COVID, I mean less likely to be felled by things that might easily knock somebody over who is not as healthy.

I always use the example of the hurricanes. You see these coastal towns of Florida and you see all the houses and the hurricane comes in. What happens is, a few are left standing, and a few are washed away, why are those left standing? That's the question I always ask. It's the same hurricane. How come they knocked over some houses and not others? And you might ask the same thing about when something's going around the office pre-COVID, everybody's getting sick except some people don't.

Why? Why do some people get out for two weeks with the same cold and others are like, "Yeah, I had a sniffle for a day? Oh, I didn't even get anything." There's got to be some focus on the host, on the person receiving the virus. Louis Pasteur... I think I may have mentioned this to you last time. On his deathbed, he was all about finding the bugs. Pasteur, for God's sake, that's all he did was look at the virus, look at the bug, look at the bacteria, look at the microbe. And on his deathbed or right around that time, he said, "Look to the host." He realized the action is not just in what is the virus doing, what is the microbe doing, what is the thing we don't want to catch doing, it's also, what's the resilience, what's the house built with? So, you want to talk about metabolic health, the time to start is right now.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, and if this was truly an ethical position on things, whether it's a newly invented drug or not, if we're not addressing the host, the underlying metabolic health, we're really missing the point.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Completely.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Because guess what happens even with a new drug intervention? The effectiveness is going to be dramatically lower because the person's immune system is already distraught. It doesn't provide some kind of miraculous immune system training that's going to outlast. And again, if we look at the results of what's transpired thus far, we can see that very clearly, and so for us to even... And we got to talk about this because this for me is a big out, it's a big scapegoat to say that that person can't get healthy. It's been almost two years now, and I've seen people get mobilized to do things that... I don't know about you, but I would have never thought people would do this before. They're getting out. They've changed their behavior so much.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: How so?

SHAWN STEVENSON: For example, everywhere you go, folks have decided to cover up their breathing pathways, their breathing apparatus, a change in behavior that's become normalized. The same thing for this accelerated process of a new drug getting approved, it's never happened before. "Let me get out and get in line and go do that thing. Let me stay away from my loved ones and isolate myself." The list goes on and on, the behavior changes. I'm just scratching the surface, but with all of these things, if it was encouraged, it was framed for grandmother, the peer-reviewed evidence that we have, for example, from Kaiser Permanente that's close to us, looking at 50,000 COVID patients and looking at their behavior as far as exercise, the two years prior to them contracting the disease, the folks who were inactive had almost a three times more likelihood of dying.

And we've had many studies come out since of reaffirming this because that's an observational study, of course. But if we know, for example, that a 20-minute walk boosts your immune parameters, neutrophils natural killer cells, the list goes on and on, and so we frame that in the media or the so-called health officials press conference, "America, we've got to make sure this is a critical free intervention for you that's going to dramatically improve your resilience from this to do a 20-minute walk each day, and we want to hold each other accountable," guess what's going to happen? There's going to be a nation of people making sure they get that 20-minute walk in because fear can be leveraged for something positive, but it's being leveraged for more disempowering things. So, with that said...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I could not agree with you more. Well said. Eloquently said. And let me underline that with more. When Kennedy was president, he mobilized the country with his president's committee on physical fitness, we were in the middle of the Cold War with Russia, and he made it like almost a patriotic thing. It's like we are going to be the most physically fit. And he got everybody on board with this, and maybe it didn't completely transform everybody, but, man, he was able to motivate people to do things in terms of physical... Because they locked it into being patriotic, to being the strongest country in the world, and all of that stuff. I want to know why these people have not frigging mentioned this sh*t once, why Fauci... And I'm not anti-Fauci. I'm just saying why has this man not once mentioned that the statistics on vitamin D are almost as impressive as the damn vaccine in the sense that they prevent people dying and being hospitalized; 98.5% of the people who died of COVID or had extremely serious reactions had vitamin D deficiencies. He takes vitamin D. Why isn't he telling us that? Because the narrative has been not to talk about the things people can do to make their own system healthy. And that's the part I really object to. And you talked about the walk, man.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And that's protection, not just for one thing as well.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: No! No!

SHAWN STEVENSON: It's to protect you from so much more.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: No, it's not.

SHAWN STEVENSON: It makes you robustly healthy. So, here's John F. Kennedy's quote because when you said that you reminded me.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, thanks, man.

SHAWN STEVENSON: He said, "Physical fitness is not only one of the most important keys to a healthy body, it is the basis of dynamic and creative intellectual activity." Beautiful statement.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: So, you mentioned why aren't we talking about the walk. I heard a statistic yesterday from John Abramson of Harvard University who said that 80% it's now... And this is pretty much accepted across the board. 80% of your health is lifestyle. 80% is the stuff we're talking about. It's not drug-related. And the narrative, and I think this gets to the core of what we were talking about offline, is that the influence of the drug companies on the economy, on the government, on the agencies that regulate them, on the recommendations that come out from the FDA, every one of these things has driven the economy of drugs in this country, in the pharmaceutical industry, and it's staggering, it is absolutely staggering.

And if your narrative is that "If you have heart disease, the answer is statin. If you have COVID, the answer's a vaccine. If you have... " It's not limited to this epidemic we're talking about here. The answer of the drug company has always been, "There's a drug for every problem and we've got it. And we do the safety trials, and we tell you what the data is, and we tell the agencies that buy it what the price is going to be." This is a very broken system, and it really is run by the... Not run by. I mean, they have an inordinate influence on policy.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Of course, yeah.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And because to their credit... My beloved niece has a master's in Public Health, and I kind of understand... Public health, their job is not to be accurate, their job is to give a concise and easily understood message that they believe is going to benefit the most people. The public doesn't do nuance. The public doesn't do shading. The public doesn't do shades of gray. So, what do I do? It's yes or no, good, or bad. Is this food good? Is this food bad? Is this exercise good? Is this diet, right? They don't do nuance and shading and personalization. So, they need a very clear message. You get sick, you get this drug. You have heart disease, take a statin. You have COVID, take a vaccine. And that message really needs to be examined in terms of its impact because nobody's talking about the free things that we can all do that will probably have more of an effect on your heart disease or whatever it is you're trying to prevent than the drug they came up with. A perfect example is the walk. The frigging 20-minute walk is probably the best piece of health advice anybody could be given to the entire country, 'cause anyone can do it. I don't care if you're in a wheelchair. There's a way to do some kind of version of that walk.

And bonus points if you do it after dinner, because that is just such a metabolic boost, and it will give you such a return... And I know you've done every kind of exercise in athletics and been at the national level of so many of these things, so obviously, a walk sounds like, "Well, what's a walk do? It doesn't burn... You're not going to get thin. You're not going to get on the cover of muscle and fitness." But in terms of return on investment, in terms of health, effects on cancer, depression, heart disease, you name it, in a simple 20, 25-minute walk every day, you can do that, I do it every day, and I play tennis three hours a day. I wouldn't be without my walks for anything. And it's just... And another thing about energy, as long as you brought it up, I have found that on days when I'm dragging a little, I never get really tired. I don't...

SHAWN STEVENSON: No kidding.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I mean I don't ever have those days like, "Oh, man, I'm dragging." Maybe once a year or something like that, but it's not a normal thing. But sometimes I'm a little more brain foggy than others. And the very fact... And I don't feel like doing it, but I do it anyway 'cause have a dog and he... 20 minutes outside, walking in the hills of Woodland, Woodland Hills right over here, and I come back like I just had three cups of coffee. It is literally energizing and invigorating and being outdoors, and there's a whole field of psychotherapy called eco-therapy that just studies the effect of being outdoors around green things, and the positive effect it has on your brain and your neurotransmitters and your hormone and your metabolism. So, the walk is like... But they can't sell it. They can't make $30 billion a year telling people to take a walk or to eat less crap.

SHAWN STEVENSON: These are the things our genes expect from us.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Expect... We were designed with this in mind. Whether it's God or the genome organizing device or whatever it is, humans have been moving like this for up until maybe 100 years ago, and we've been eating a certain way up until maybe 100 and 150 years ago. So where should we look for guidance in an era when we are getting so much contradictory information about exercise, so much contradictory information about what's healthy to eat, about whether Keto diets are better than vegan diet. When we're getting all of this, where do we look for to kind of... What's the Bible? What's the given here that we should look to for guidance? And to me, it's what did the human genus do for 2.4 million years, before they invented fast food before McDonald's was a franchise? What did we do? We ate from what I call the Jonny Bowden four food groups, foods you could hunt, fish, gather, or pluck. If you could hunt it, fish it, gather it, or pluck it, even if you're buying it in the supermarket, could you have hunted it? Could you have fished it? Could you have plucked it from a thing, or grabbed it off the ground? It's probably good for you. And that's the best dietary advice I could give anyone, real food that you could've hunted, fished, gathered, or plucked. You'll be fine.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I've never seen anyone hunt an Apple Jack or gather an Apple Jack. These are things that are newly invented. They're not even food.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They're not food.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I struggle to even...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They're food products.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They're food products.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Not to say they're not tasty, but that's...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They are tasty.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Actually, let's talk about that, but I want to hammer home one point, because what we're talking about here are things that, again, these are things your genes expect from you, your DNA expects, and we're talking about movement, for example. That is the controlling force of your immune system.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: In our culture today, we have a fundamental flaw where we believe... We've allowed the belief that your health condition is a deficiency in a drug. Your heart disease, you're deficient in this drug. Your infectious disease, you're deficient in this drug or this treatment.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Bless you for saying so. My mentor, my first teacher of nutrition, the great Robert Crayhon, late great Robert Crayhon used to say, "Dude, depression is not a Prozac deficiency. Heart disease is not a statin deficiency." So, he basically was saying exactly what you're saying right now.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And yet the drug companies would have us believe that, and they influence policy, and they influence what the media says. And it's a tall order, what you and I have. Our marching orders are a tall one. We literally have to take a population that has been, I don't want to say brainwashed, but it's been subjected to consistent messaging about drugs being the answer to every condition that we suffer from, medicalizing every human feeling and condition, and "Oh, this is this depression, and we need a drug for that, a special drug for... " And not ever looking at how we can build our own resources. It's just not a great financial model for them to teach us that. And if one thing has come out of this whole thing with the pandemic, it seems to be something... And we're going to talk about this when we talk about Dope sick. One thing that's very clear to me is that people do not understand the main purpose of drug companies. They really don't.

They still have this feeling that they're there to help us and wipe out sickness, and sure, they'd love to do that in the process, but they have one and only one prima facie purpose in life, and that is to their shareholders, to make money. It is exactly the same purpose as MasterCard, Walmart, and you name the corporation. It is to sell products and to have a bottom-line profit at the end of the quarter for the shareholders. They don't give a sh*t about making us healthy or preventing... That's not the... And the food companies, the same thing, it's not about, "We want to feed the world." If that was really the case, you have to look at what they do with their patents in countries that can't afford their medicines, if they really just wanted to do that. So, let's be honest about that.

That doesn't mean that drug companies haven't come up with wonderful life-saving things. I'm not anti-drug companies. I'm anti the misuse of drug companies and their influence. But God, they saved us from tuberculosis, smallpox. I had hepatitis C, there was an eight-week course of drugs. It was miraculous. I am not anti-drug companies, but you can be suspicious of the fox in the hen house without being an anti-fox. You just got to know that they have enormous influence on how we think about illness and how we think about our own abilities to recover from things, and our own ability to strengthen our immunity, to strengthen our resilience, to change your attitudes, all of those things. And the old naturopaths had an essence of this, right? There's stuff, sunlight, water, rest, air. These things actually are very healing, they just can't be sold for $30 billion a year.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, man, you've laid it out very clearly. I think that especially in our time today and the time that I have with you, I want to talk about... I definitely want to dive more into nutrition and how things have got twisted up, and also some foods that we can look at to help to remedy the situation.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Sure.

SHAWN STEVENSON: But I want to also drive this point home that this is a wonderful time to be alive because we get to see this stuff firsthand and be a part of something special as far as change, a positive change. But we didn't get to this place on accident, where we are the sickest nation in recorded human history. Right now, here in the United States, we have the highest rates of obesity, heart disease, drug overdoses, for example, the new report, which is as of this recording, I've already shared an episode talking about the report coming out that Fentanyl is the leading cause of death for folks between the age of 18 and 45, the number one cause of death.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I saw that.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And yet, if you go to Dr. Google and look it up, you're not going to see any major news sites reporting on this. You're going to see some local stories, and also Fox did do a report on it, but it was here today, going today. And you've got to understand who's financing these media channels, which is drug companies. They have so much influence on the "news" that we're getting, and also the political influence where they can essentially do whatever they want and get away with whatever they want. Changing policy, two-thirds of United States Congress members received a check from pharmaceutical companies in 2020. How is this not a conflict of interest? For me, again, if this was effective and working well for us, I'd be all for it. Pay the Congresspeople to manipulate and get more drugs on the market.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: 100% true.

SHAWN STEVENSON: But look at the results. We're not getting better. We're the most drugged culture in history as well, not to mention that.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And I believe 68th in the world in healthcare outcomes. 68.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah. And we spend more money on healthcare than anywhere else. But it's not really healthcare, it's on drugs and procedures.

SHAWN STEVENSON: The EJS Center for Ethics at Harvard University, and you mentioned John Abramson, I've talked with him several times...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: You need to get him on your show.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, yeah, I'm talking to him in a couple of days. But I've been talking to him for months. And he's the guy literally behind the scenes who's seen the drug trials, the stuff that he had to sign an NDA he can't talk about.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah, let's just tell the audience who he is. He's a lecturer at Harvard University, he's been a family doctor for 20 years, and he wrote a book about 20 years ago called Over-diagnosed about this whole thing, and he's got a new book coming out. I'm sitting here promoting his book instead of mine. But it's important, people need to know about this. It's called Sickened: How the Pharmaceutical Industry Broke Healthcare and What We Can Do About It. It's an important thing for people to read. And why he is the right person to talk about this, as you were about to say, and why the audience needs to know this, is he's the number one expert in the world, in the country, on drug litigation. For the past 10 years, he serves as an expert witness in countless cases of plaintiffs bringing actions against drug companies. He's looked at their data. He's hired statisticians to re-analyze the raw data. He knows where the bodies are buried and how these guys operate, which brings us to Dope sick in a way.

So, he's got a very important message about the outsized influence of the drug companies on even thinking what we can do ourselves. Because if you think about it, if we all got healthy, they're out of business. So, it's not really in their interest to tell us how to get healthy. It's in their interest to tell us how their drug can change a symptom. And that's kind of... When we were talking about The Great Cholesterol Myth last time, the whole thing about statins and bringing down LDL cholesterol, they can bring down a lab test, they don't reduce deaths. They reduce numbers on a lab test. And if you are the drug company, you want to make sure that that's equated in the public's mind with reducing the risk for a disease. "Oh, my LDL cholesterol is down, I'm fine," but it's not. You're not. 'Cause, that is not the measure of whether you're really at risk for heart disease. But the drug companies would love you to think that 'cause they got a drug ready to go to lower it.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Right. You mentioned Dope sick a couple of times. Let's talk about this because with Fentanyl being the leading cause of death for folks in that age group, the...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Prime of life...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Age group...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Awful.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And the whole purpose of this, in looking at this is that the doors were just blown open for these types of narcotics to be even available in the US market in the first place by drug companies and their fraudulent framing of things because knowing, for example, just how addictive these substances are, and hiding the data, twisting up, and this is something, of course, John can talk about as well...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Better than I can.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Really muddying up the data to make it look a certain way...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: All the while we're losing... Since 2000, a million people have died from opioids. Not to mention Fentanyl now is just like taking over everything, the synthetic version of it. So, let's talk about Dope sick, because this is something that you checked out and you know quite a bit about, and just kind of paint a picture of one of the things we covered.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah, well if people haven't seen it, it's a TV series now and it's based on a book, and it's a great TV series. If you haven't seen it, it's basically the telling of the story of OxyContin and how it became the biggest epidemic and how it's killing people all across the country, particularly in the Rust Belt in West Virginia and Kentucky and Pennsylvania and how this happened. And it is a stunning and jaw-dropping portrayal of how these drug companies literally sent representatives to the doctors to show very specific data, how they hid other data, how they sullied up to the doctors and with lunches and getting to know them and how they targeted them and how they knew how to speak to them and how to motivate them, and how they monitored their prescription behavior and all of this stuff. And you look at this and you go, "These people literally, they lied about the addictiveness of it, they managed to get influence with the FDA, which is not unheard of, where they were able to get this statement from the FDA that said this is less addictive than the other opioids, it was not."

SHAWN STEVENSON: And the guy who made this statement, who helped them to craft that statement went on to work for Purdue Pharmaceuticals.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: This happens... Okay, so this is my point. So, it is... Everybody would watch this, and you would be horrified. And this company, by the way, was paid billions of dollars, and I think they went... They're bankrupt. But I'm not sure. But there's been a huge accountability for Purdue Pharma for doing this. They're just the scum of the earth. But here's the thing. What I would like people to know about that, and what I think people don't know, is that Purdue Pharma and OxyContin, that's the Jeffrey Epstein of drug companies. They just got caught, and they did something odious and even a little over the top even for bad behavior. You think that stops with Jeffrey Epstein? You think that's not how the other companies do business? They just got caught. And what... There's... We were talking about this offline. Going back to 2004, there was a book written by the editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine, Marcia Angell, you do not get more conservative and more mainstream, it's the goddamn New England Journal of Medicine, and she's the editor-in-chief, and she wrote a book called The Truth About Drug Companies explaining that what you saw in Dope sick is what they have been doing all along.

They just got caught, and the drug happened to be extremely addictive and killed a lot of people. You think they don't sell statin drugs the same way? You think they don't sell arthritis drugs the same way? There's a process called detailing. They do a profile on the doctor. They say, "Well, this doctor is really motivated by thinking of himself as being at the head of science, so we got to give him a lot of the science. This one thinks of himself more as like a very skeptic, so we have to hit the things that the skeptical... " They literally target the presentation, depending on the psychological profile of the doctor. It's called detailing. They have representatives who do this. They monitor the prescribing behavior. They reward them with, "Would you like to come to Hawaii and give a lecture? It's an educational thing, but all expenses paid, the golf course, bring your wife, the whole thing."

This is how they do business. And Dope sick is just an extremely bad example of it, just the worst, but it isn't qualitatively different, Shawn, from how every drug company manufactures the demand for their products. And I think people should look at that not just as a, "Oh isn't that awful?" kind of shouting forward. You just want to see how terrible it is and look at the accident. Look at it as an object lesson that's going on in your doctor's office right now, probably with the drugs you're taking. And I don't mean that there are no good drugs. I mean that we need to have... Part of the conversation needs to be, "How do we get healthy on our own?" And if we can't have that be part of the conversation... And the drug companies don't really want it to be part of a conversation. If you can cure diabetes or prevent diabetes with lifestyle, which you can, what do the people who sell Metformin do?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, you lose a lifetime customer. It's really profound, and like you just said, it's happening right now as we speak in virtually every doctor's office across America, specifically in America. This is a worldwide issue, but America we're the king of this issue because our regulations... And it's even covered in the film in the series. And it's on Hulu by the way. It's covered in the series how drug companies understand the terrain here in the United States. They can manipulate it so much easier. They were trying to push themselves into other markets, and it just doesn't work the same. And here in the United States, we are one of two countries in the world that allow... Yeah, that allows the advertisement...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Marketing to customers.

SHAWN STEVENSON: It's just like, again, we're selling products like its tennis shoes on television, but the other country, New Zealand, they actually have much more stringent laws as far as what they can market. It has to be factual. Here in the United States...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, that. It has to be factual. That's a high bar.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Even still, I'm not going to say because I'm not there in the culture to see what level of fact that is, but here in the United States, they can essentially put on a drug commercial and just have all this imagery of the wonderful life that you're going to have and hide all of the potential detrimental things that they share those things because they're noted in the clinical trials that hey, this person developed blindness or whatever the case might be, covered that up with beautiful music as the people are on the boat sailing or whatever the case might be. So, it's a way, again, purposeful manipulation, psychological manipulation is allowed here in the United States.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And it's all legal. Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Alright. We need to... Right now, we're going to make an NBA level pivot and we were to get more into solutions because...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, yes. I was just thinking the same.

SHAWN STEVENSON: When I think of you, again, I think of energy, and I think of nutrition. You've been somebody who's walked the talk and taught so many folks, and do you have one of your books... Which is one of the most beautiful books that I personally have, The 150 Healthiest Foods on Earth.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh. Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And I was just flipping through that today before our conversation, and you also have another book, The 150 most effective ways to boost your energy.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah...

SHAWN STEVENSON: This is just one of how many books, you don't even know how many...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Fifteen.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You got 15. Okay, I was going to say you probably don't even know how many books you've written.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, yeah, I do.

SHAWN STEVENSON: But let's talk about food, some of these healthy foods, because if we're looking at energy, again, sleep is foundational, movement is foundational, but our nutrition is obviously foundational, let's talk about some of these foods that can help to support health and support energy.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Well, I think it starts with the effect of food on hormones, and this is the part that I didn't learn when I was a trainer at Equinox, and you probably didn't learn in your early days either, it was all about calories and macros, how much protein, how much carbs. But what we didn't know then, and I think we know now, is that food is information, and that information tells your hormones, your endocrine system, what hormones to release. Some of those hormones store fat, such as insulin, some of them release fat, such as glucagon, and some of them cause appetite, like leptin. And to talk about the foods without talking about their impact on the hormones is missing half of the equation.

So, when I talk about energy, the example I like to give is this, it's like you can't hold... You can't grasp water, you can get more energy from something else, and take something to get energy, you can't, but you can hold water by creating a structure, you could put some water in your palm and actually hold it there. So, what I always think about is, what are we doing? We're trying to grasp energy out there, but what we're really doing in our lives is making all these holes for the water to fall through, so if we could plug some of those, we actually might have the energy that is our birthright.

You don't have to talk to a 2-year-old, my niece has a new three-year-old, you don't have to talk them about energy, they come out of the box with energy, so what do we do to muddy up the goldfish bowl, so to speak. You took it home from the pet store, it's clear water, that's your energy, and then it just gets a lot of sh*t in it, right. So, what is that stuff? And to me, that can be summed under one label, processed food. So, before we've been talking about superfoods, it's like, get that stuff out of there and watch how much energy... It's like closing the gaps because that's the stuff, the cereals, the breads, the pastas, the rice cakes, all the stuff, the healthy low-fat cereals, the entire cereal rack at the grocery store pretty much. And everything that looks like that. Those are the things that are draining our energy, if we just got those out of the diet and ate the rest, the stuff you could hunt, fish, gather or pluck, we'd be fine, we'd have more energy than we would know what to do with. So, I think it starts not with adding superfoods, but with taking some of these things that are draining our energy away, like not sleeping enough for example, which is what we started talking about, but also eating crap.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. That's a fact, I love that. Because we tend to think about things in terms of, again, people coming in, "What can I take? What can I take?" When the solution is often, let's just remove the thing that is causing the problem.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's so often... I'm so glad you put it that way because it's like... Again, I mentioned Barbara Crayon, my original nutrition mentor and teacher, he used to say with Americans, you'd tell 'em olive oil is a superfood, they'll just put it on their cornflakes. It isn't a matter of adding more olive oil, it's a matter of also getting rid of the cornflakes. Now, if you get rid of the cornflakes and you add the Super Foods like olive oil and blueberries, and wild salmon and all the grass-fed meat, full-fat dairy.

When you add those things in, or you're eating those things and you get rid of the other stuff, well, it's kind of like a sculpture, it takes a thing of a block of wood or a block of... And they chop away all the crap and what's left is the sculpture. They make the sculpture; they just removed the crap that was preventing the figure from revealing itself. So, by chipping away all that stuff you're left with Michelangelo's David, he didn't start taking clay and building the David he just cut the stuff that wasn't the David away. So, if we're looking at energy and an optimal way and an optimal way of engaging with life, we got to cut away the stuff that's preventing that, it's not going to be about...

It's almost a drug industry mentality to think, what can I take for energy, we're so used to taking something to give us energy, to give us a better weight, to give us a happier mood that we don't realize that half the reason we don't have those things, is the sh*t that we are taking, and if we took away some of that stuff, guess what would be revealed? You know what I'm saying?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, let's reframe this and let's look at things through the lens of clean fuel.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Perfect.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Alright.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Why don't we.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You mentioned... And what made the connection well I was thinking about fossil fuels, and then I was thinking about the oils, and you mentioned olive oil, and so does that fit into that category for you as being one of those clean-burning fuels...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Absolutely. In fact, I consider olive oil a medicinal food, without going into my whole history with cholesterol and treatment because I had some disturbing numbers myself when I was measured correctly. One of my cardiologist friends said, before you even consider any medication, I want you to take a quarter of a cup of extra virgin olive oil every day, which I did and do frequently when I remember, but I literally will drink that out of the bottle, it's that much of a medicinal food. It's not just the fat, by the way, it's not just the monounsaturated fats which are very good in anti-inflammatory, it's also the olive polyphenols, it's all the things that are in the olive plant, they're just incredibly anti-inflammatory and antioxidant, and it's just a very good medicinal food.

While we're on the subject of oils, 'cause I mentioned earlier the American Heart Association's new recommendations. And they made a point of saying don't eat tropical oils. I think that's nonsense. Coconut oil and Malaysian palm oil are the two that are usually grouped together as tropical oils, and the only reason that the American Heart Association doesn't like those is because they contain some saturated fat. Well, all oils have some saturated fat. Some mono, some... Like that they're all a mix, and yes, those tropical oils do. But if you look, for example, at coconut oil, the type of saturated fat in coconut oil is MCTs. Which is very much burned by the body as almost like a carbohydrate.

It doesn't contribute to obesity, it tends to not be stored as fat, and one of the fats in coconut oil is lauric acid, which is anti-viral anti-microbial. This is a great fat. Malaysian palm oil is not necessarily anti-inflammatory, but it's not pro-inflammatory, like all the white oils that they keep telling us to take. It's red because it's loaded with tocotrienols and carotenoids. It's a very healthy oil, and the studies that have shown people who eat tons of that but also eat a relatively low carb have very low heart disease. So, it's not associated with any of that. So again, this concentration on, "Oh, these oils have fat. They have saturated fat, and therefore they're bad for us." It's wrong.

And there are a lot of oils. The ones I worry about are not Malaysian palm oil, coconut oil, or olive oil, or avocado oil, or any of those. I worry about the safflower, the sunflower, the corn oil, and the damn soybean oil, and canola oil that we have been told are really healthy oils that are very pro-inflammatory, most of them are GMO. Unless they're organic and cold-pressed, they are very highly processed.

There's nothing in there that has any nutritional value whatsoever, and they're literally the run-off from crops that they manage to sell us as being healthy, 'cause they don't have saturated fat. And this notion that anything that has saturated fat is bad, anything that has non-saturated fat is good, is one of the great myths of our time. And it's made people fat, sick, tired, and depressed. I know nutritionists, probably many people who have been on your show, who literally think that sugar and vegetable oil are the two most inflammatory and sickness-promoting elements in our diet.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Pretty much. Pretty much.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: But the American Heart Association's worried about tropical oils, and not that crap. I wonder why.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I've never seen virgin canola oil.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: There is no such thing.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Or virgin soybean oil. Because it has to be deodorized. It has to be used.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: De-gummed in high temperatures with incredibly abrasive chemicals.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Cleaning agents, all that stuff.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And their GMO, which everyone says is safe, except we've got the high...

SHAWN STEVENSON: Same situation that denatures the omega 3s there, the oxidation, it's unbelievable. To recap, we've got three high-quality oils that you've covered here.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, there's more. I mentioned those, the tropical ones, because the standard advice from groups like the American Heart Association is, "They're the real bad guys." But we didn't talk about avocado oil. That's a wonderful oil. Almond oil. There are plenty of good oils out there. But this emphasis on this white crappy, Wesson, all of these corn oils and vegetable oil things, they do nothing but promote the opposite of what we think they are doing, which is making our heart healthier.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Alright, to recap, we've got coconut oil here really stood out for me, and it's looking at in isolation of, "Saturated fat bad." It just negates the fact that this food has been used for thousands of years.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: So, has palm oil, by the way. It's the olive oil of Asia and Africa.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And so, by being in an environment where there are parasites and things of that nature, it's anti-parasitic, anti-viral, anti-microbial. It's a natural thing natures provided as a form of protection. And you mentioned the MCTs. Olive oil, as well, is extra virgin. It's cold-processed, retaining these nutrients. Researchers at Auburn University did some really interesting research, and they found that oleocanthal-rich extra-virgin olive oil is one of the few foods ever discovered that can help to repair damage to the blood-brain barrier.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It is medicinal.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You got it right. As soon as you said that I was like, "He's going to say the thing!" Absolutely. We got avocado oil on the list here, we've got palm oil, as well.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And by the way, the reason I mentioned Malaysia is I do care about the animal environments, and there are countries that have done really not good stuff with the farming of palm oil. It's not sustainable in some countries, but Malaysia is one of the most environmentally conscious countries, and they really are doing a lot to try to change that. What's going on in Indonesia, places like that. And we get most of our palm oil from Malaysia. I just want to give them a shout-out 'cause they're really making an effort to make it sustainable. For those who might think, "Well, yeah. But that's sustainable. They use child... " They don't.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And another one of these clean-burning fuels, when you rattle off some in the beginning and you said blueberries.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, God.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Let's talk about that.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Yeah. Well, again, elderberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries strawberries, all of them are low-sugar fruits. They are less likely to stimulate insulin. They are higher in fiber, lower in sugar certainly than any processed food. And then most fruits... Berries are like they are the friend of everybody, even people on keto diets and stuff.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Even my favorite carnivore doc, Paul Saladino, he says he eats berries.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Does he?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I think there's a lot of people who take the basic premise of a keto diet, or the premise of a paleo diet, and do some adaptations around it to personalize it, what's wrong with that? Nothing at all.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, and if you just look at it again, what have humans been eating the longest, and we've got such a diverse audience here. That's the thing I really love about this community. It's so inclusive, and we've got folks who are doing vegan protocols all the way to carnivore protocols, and the overarching tenet is to eat real food.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: That's what we agree with. I've battled with some of the more aggressive members of the vegan community who get very litigious over this, but I am always looking for things that people have in common.

SHAWN STEVENSON: We need to be more united.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh my God, and you and I were talking about it offline. What we're experiencing right now, 2022 in California, is the mobilization on this thing with the vaccine. I always look whether it's vegan versus carnivore, whether it's anti-vax versus vax.

If we could just stop the shouting for a minute, what do we agree on? And certainly, the vegans have very good points about factory farming and the treatment of animals and the horrific conditions and the unhealthy meats that are produced in these factory farms in these they're called CAFOS Confined Animal Feeding Operations they're not even farms they're just these massive big agriculture things that just destroy any natural habitat of the animals, and they treat them they chop the tails off of the pigs because they don't want them to do too much social behavior, the things that they do to the cattle they feed them food, that makes their stomach acidic because they're not meant to be eating grains they meant to be eating grass.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Feed them antibiotics.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: So, then they happen to be more antibiotics because they get sick from the food that they're not supposed to eat.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And it helps them to gain weight faster.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And helps them gain weight faster. And all of that stuff. So, if that were the only animal products available to me, I would join the vegans and become a vegan but it's not the only animal product and people can ask for grass-fed and humanely raised and things like that, so those foods are very, very... To me, those are health food.

SHAWN STEVENSON: So is there a benefit as far as the nutritional profile for looking at grain-fed candy fed, and that's a real thing, by the way, candy is a regular practice in cattle farming.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Are You kidding.

SHAWN STEVENSON: No, no, not at all. And I actually, we'll put a video for folks.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh my god.

SHAWN STEVENSON: In the show notes of this episode to demonstrate this, and because how the story got out was there was a shipment of red Skittles that was being shipped, and so there was a spill on the highway.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: You're kidding me.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And so, the news, local-news was covering it, but they were like, Where was this enroute to? To a cattle farm, and so in this particular video, they're feeding the cows a mixture of like, hay, and antibiotics.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And skittles.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And this kind of...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: And skittles.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And of course, it's fortified and not just skittles, but candy with wrappers and all in this particular video folks are going to see so this is a regular practice. So that spectrum grain-fed or just trash-fed versus grass-fed.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Very different.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Is there a change in the nutritional profile...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Well, here's a very interesting thing about this. It depends on who just doing the study. So obviously, the people that make non-organic, food want you to believe there's no difference between organic and non-organic, and when they do the studies, they will look at things like, they'll pick a vitamin-like vitamin A, and then I'll have a wonderful study that they say We did a study and the vitamin A in the supermarket food, the crap food that was factory-farmed or raised, in big agriculture that is exactly... They have the same amount of vitamin A, or they have the same amount of vitamin E. And I wrote an article about this one, and I said, we don't buy organic, food I don't... Because it has more of the vitamins, we buy it because it has less of the toxins that you put in to be other stuff we buy 'cause it doesn't have that stuff, which has long-term effects on our health down the road, so I don't care if it has more vitamin A. That's not why I'm buying it.

I got plenty of vitamin A, I'm buying 'cause I don't want the sh*t they spray on the non-organic stuff, and I don't want the GMO, even though they told me it's perfectly safe, so it isn't really... I don't think that that is the standard by which we should decide whether to get something that's grass-fed versus factory-farmed or something that's organic, which is non-organic, we should really look at what the organic stuff doesn't have, and that's why I don't buy everything organic and most people won't It's way more expensive. So do it selectively look at the... What it's called, EDW environmental working group.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Working group.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: They publish a list of the 15 most contaminated crops in America buy that stuff organic. I don't buy pineapples organic it's got to skin this thick; I figure I'll take my chances, but I buy Strawberries organic because it's one of the most sprayed crops in the world.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I think it's number one.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It could be...

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, yeah, so it's... They have got the dirty dozen.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: The dirty dozen everybody that's a free resource, it's on the internet, go download it and don't buy those things, the things on the dirty dozen in a regular form because they are huge sources of pesticides and chemicals.

SHAWN STEVENSON: So, to add to this list, I would imagine that you're doing some intermittent fasting and.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I would love to talk about that.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I would love to hear what you're breaking your fast with... When Dr. Jonny Bowden eats. What does that meal look like?

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I'm sure you know this as an athlete, there was something we were taught at Equinox years ago, called portland training would. Basically, you kind of use your... You get trained and then you kind of know what you need to work on that day and you kind of it isn't really regimented. Is that an accurate thing of what part of training is okay?

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, it is kind of just.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Kind of how I do my part.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, it's Very flexible.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's flexible.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Variable.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I am a flexible dieter and faster, I've never been a real rule follower in anything, so... So, I don't have a way that I always break the fast and I don't even have a very specific, like I can’t eat until 1:30 I have a routine where I don't... I play tennis every morning, I don't eat before I play, I come home, do some stuff, I wind up not eating the first meal until 1:30 and I don't have a specific thing. It kind of depends. Sometimes I do a lot of grass-fed burgers for breakfast for late meals for lunch, for whatever, so it will really depend. I do a lot of nuts, even on my fasting days, a lot of fasting programs actually allow you to eat on the fasting days, a small amount of calories, and I wrote a course on this, by the way, shameless plug it's on my website, there's a free five-day introduction to intermittent fasting that you can sign up for on Jonny Bowden I think it's really an important intervention for people to know about, but one of the things.

SHAWN STEVENSON: What's the website.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Jonnybowden.com, J-O-N-N-Y-B-O-W-D-E-N.com and that's where the free course is. But many of these programs, the warrior diet, which is you eat within four hours, the 16:8 programs, there's a couple of alternate day fasting programs, in some of the less stringent versions of this, they allow you 500 calories a day during the day of fasting. They're not zero. Some are, but many are not. And what I do is very often, just on a fasting day, all I'll do is eat nuts. And I found this during the pandemic when I was just looking for like, what can I buy? Everything's sold out. Actually nothing... They told us everything was sold out. What was sold out was the... Nobody had a shortage of nuts, meat, vegetables, fruits, they were all there.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I saw it firsthand.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: There was no shortage. All the packaged stuff was gone, but I don't eat that anyway. So, I just stocked up on all of that stuff. And I found that nuts were one of the best all-day long snacks that really sustained me, kept me going. I kept hunger pangs away, and then I'd eat when I felt like it.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah, I was at the grocery store when all h-e double hockey sticks were breaking loose and people, so I could see... I'm looking at things through my rational perspective, and the processed food aisle, the cereals just... It looked like a ghost town, and of course, the toilet paper was gone, long gone. But the vegetable, there was so many vegetables there that people just basically... And if it came down to it, and you don't got that toilet paper, you got some kale. I'm just saying, back up alert. So anyway, but this is the crazy paradigm that we're living in, so I want to reiterate and ask you about your nuts. You mentioned that you love even on those fasting days...

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: I do.

SHAWN STEVENSON: What particular nuts are your personal favorites? What about Brazil nuts? Is it almonds?

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Well, since you mentioned Brazil nuts, I don't usually munch on them, but talk about healthy food in a jar. So, selenium, which is one of the most important minerals that we don't get enough of just... We could talk for half an hour on selenium. There's almost none in the soil. Most of us do not get even a minimum amount. You can correct selenium deficiency really easily with two or three Brazil nuts. That's all you need. You don't want to take supplements? Great. Two or three Brazil nuts a day is medicine.

So, it's not something I necessarily snack on, but it's definitely something I want to get some of, and I take... Selenium is in my multiple, and I probably get plenty of it, but Brazil nuts are really an unsung hero in terms of nutrition. I personally prefer... I like cashews a lot. They're kind of considered the red-headed stepsister of the nut kingdom, 'cause they have a couple of carbs more than other nuts, but who cares, almonds, pecans, walnuts. PAW the paw thing, pecans, almonds, walnuts is a good kind of metaphor... A good acronym to keep in mind if you can, but I actually believe there are no bad nuts. So mixed nuts are great. I get the big thing from Target, they're fantastic. They're really fresh and salted and delicious, and any of them. I don't think one is better than the next. They have slightly different mineral and protein profiles, but they're all good.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Perfect.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's like tea. There's no bad tea from the Camellias and... It's just plant, this green, oolong, black, and green, and they're just different fermentation processes, but there's no bad tea. There's no bad nuts.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I think this is a good place for us to wrap, is talking about, since you just brought it up, tea.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Tea. I just did a video on this. And if there was a food or a berry or a juice, Acai berry, goji berry, that had half the properties that have been demonstrated in purity research on tea, and this berry was discovered, and people started doing a multi-level marketing. And people would buy that juice for $16 a bottle and not even blink an eye. And here we have the second most consumed beverage in the world next to water, the least expensive one, and that has a resume. When I was doing this video, I started just going to PubMed and looking at some health benefits of tea. You could be reading for hours just on cancer, on cardiovascular disease, on mood, on circulation. There is almost not an area of human health that is not positively... And weight loss, that isn't positively impacted by tea. You want a basic health intervention for the world that costs nothing, drink three cups of tea a day. How easy is that? Take a walk. The thing that I've found, and I bet you will agree with this, is that people really want this esoteric kind of magical solutions to things like, oh, here's this pill, nobody knows about it, but if you take that, this is going to happen. Or there's this exercise that you can do in 14 minutes a day, and it would be the same thing as...

They're always looking for those things, and right in front of us, we have these tools such as take a 20-minute walk every day, drink a couple of cups of tea. You can be doing the worst diet, half a cup of blueberries every so often. These are upgrades to your health that are right there, that you don't need drugs and you don't need special equipment for, and they're really important, and nobody talks about them. So, thank you for bringing up tea. And I'm a big coffee drinker. I love coffee, but I have added tea. I make sure I drink a couple of cups of tea a day. And it's really an easy upgrade. It's cheap as can be. And there it is.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Well, Jonny, you've given us the positive tea today. I don't know if you know about this, but these kids out here on the street, so the tea is like the gossip.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Oh, yes, I already have kids in the house so...

SHAWN STEVENSON: This is a positive tea, and I appreciate you so much for coming through and hanging out with us.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And can you let everybody know where to connect with you.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Absolutely.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Get more information, all of that stuff.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: It's Jonny Bowden and just remembers no H in Jonny. I am thrilled to say that at this point, Google, if you put in Jonny Nutritionist, I come up.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yes, Jonny be good. Yes, we can. I appreciate you so much and I love you, and you're such an inspiration for me and for so many folks. Again, I'm not just saying this, you’re somebody we really should aspire to be like.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: No, I don't know about that but thank you for saying so.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Listen, golden, 75 years. And what you've accomplished, the attention you've put into your body, into your health, to your psychology, I just marvel at it.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: That's very kind of you. And can I close with one thing? Can we say one thing about that? We've been talking about how to get people healthy, and it's a real mission of love for me to get this out in the world. We spend one-third of the book, The Great Cholesterol Myth, talking about it. These are the things that don't have to do with diet, that don't have to do with exercise. These are the things that impact our health as profoundly as food and exercise, and that is human connection, both sleep and stress, we talk about connection, finding ways to connect with people, finding time to connect with people. Yes, it's more difficult now, and you got to find it, you got to do it because these are the things that keep us healthy and in ways that we don't really speak about enough. What you think about affects your neurotransmitters, it affects your hormones, it affects your endocrine system, it affects you resilience, it affects your immunity. Stress has an effect on all of these things, and being with people, contributing to a community, an organization, I don't care if it's a church, a temple, an atheist organization, whatever it is, a 12-step program being part of something, doing things for something outside yourself, these are deposits in your health bank, and we neglect them at our own peril.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Hold up, wait a minute. I cannot let you go without giving you the tea on tea. I didn't know Jonny was going to bring this up, but we cannot leave this open-loop happening right now, because one of the most important things seen in the clinical data as far as tea is concerned, especially if we're talking about green tea if we're talking about oolong if we're talking about Matcha, is the L-theanine. L-theanine works to improve focus, and it's noted in one of the most prestigious journals looking at brain health called Brain Topography. The researchers observed that L-theanine intake increases the frequency of alpha brain waves, indicating reduced stress, enhanced focus, and even increased creativity. The study noted that sipping on two to three cups per day appears to carry the most brain benefit, and the most remarkable source of L-theanine is found in a specific type of Matcha green tea, Sun Goddess Matcha Green tea from Pique Teas. It's shaded 35% longer for extra L-theanine to support calm, to support focus, to support creativity, is crafted by a Japanese tea master. Are we talking about Master Shi-fu level tea mastery here, and there are less than 15 of these folks in the entire world?

It is the first matcha that is quadruple toxin-screened for purity. This is one of the biggest issues with green tea is all of the contaminants: Heavy metals, mold, microplastics from our tea. It's insane. We were trying to get these benefits; we want to avoid these contaminants. This is the first one, quadruple toxin-screened for purity, and there's no crazy additives, no preservatives, sugar, artificial sweeteners, nothing of the like, just this amazing Sun Goddess matcha green tea from Pique Teas. Go to piquetea.com/model for 10% off, store-wide, including their remarkable matcha green teas. That's P-I-Q-U-E-T-E-A.com/model exclusive 10% off only for the Model Health Show listeners. Pop over there and check them out today, piquetea.com/model. Dr. Jonny Bowden, I appreciate you so much.

DR. JONNY BOWDEN: Thank you, man.

SHAWN STEVENSON: All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. Jonny Bowden is an absolute example of what's possible. Here in the studio, I'm telling you, he is bouncing around, he is moving, shaking. I got to move furniture around. His chair is moving, he's so full of energy, so full of life, and also somebody who is... I think a big driving force in his life, and what keeps him going is that he loves learning. We need that motivation, we need a purpose, we need something to attach our life force to. That's another one of those un-talked about, qualities for longevity, and this guy is staying on top of the data, he's researching, he's learning, he's teaching, and also, of course, teaching is one of the most powerful ways of learning, because when you teach, you get to learn it twice.

I appreciate you so much for tuning into the show today. If you got a lot of value out of this, please share it out with your friends and family. On social media, you could tag me and tag Jonny. He would love to see that. Tag him and let him know what you thought about this episode, and of course, you can send this directly from the podcast app that you're listening on directly to somebody that you care about. I appreciate you so much for tuning into the show today. We've got some epic shows coming your way very soon, so make sure to stay tuned. Take care, have an amazing day, and I'll talk with you soon.

And for more after the show, make sure to head over to themodelhealthshow.com. That's where you can find all of the show notes, you could find transcriptions, videos for each episode, and if you got a comment, you can leave me a comment there as well, and please make sure to head over to iTunes and leave us a rating to let everybody know that the show is awesome, and I appreciate that so much. And take care. I promise to keep giving you more powerful, empowering, great content to help you transform your life. Thanks for tuning in.