SHAWN STEVENSON: Welcome to the Model Health Show. At a time when the health and fitness industry is hyper-focused on adding more years to your life. Today we're gonna be focused on adding more life to your years. And though we may not understand it, we may not even think about this or want to think about this. One of the most profound things that we can do to add more life to our years is to understand and to evaluate and to talk about the role of death. And today's special guest is going to open up this conversation, and I'm telling you, it changed my life.

I feel so much more value in the minutes that I have that I'm experiencing right now as a result of her work and of this conversation. It just took it up a thousand more notches. And today's guest is Bronnie Ware, and she's the author of the International bestselling Memoir, the Top Five Regrets of the Dying Read by Well Over a Million People. And Bronnie is also a renowned speaker. She's a TEDx speaker. She's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, the Sunday Times, and countless other media outlets, and she's also a renowned speaker and teacher on the power of courage and living a life without regrets. Let's dive into this conversation with the amazing Bronnie Ware.

Bronnie, I'm so grateful for you coming to see me today. 

BRONNIE WARE: It's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you, Shawn. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yes. So, you know, it's so interesting in our culture that people are uncomfortable or even afraid of talking about death. Why do you think that is? 

BRONNIE WARE: Oh, I think well, it's not part of our culture for one, but we have to face the truth if we start talking about death, and that is that our time is limited, that perhaps we're chasing the wrong goals. It means having very honest conversations and it's not an easy subject to talk about. But it's an essential subject because the more we talk about it, the more we can use death as a tool for living and change the way we're living and how we wanna approach it. So, yeah it's heartbreaking really, that we're in a culture same in Australia as you guys here, that no one wants to talk about it. And, it's to our own detriment that we don't. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: I wrote that down. Use death as a tool for living. That's just profound in and of itself. And you know, here in the US which people can hear you from Australia.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: We have this saying that there's only two things that are guaranteed in this lifetime. Death and taxes.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: All right. Yeah. And so it's like, it's one of those things that is guaranteed. And yet we don't want to face it. We don't wanna look at it, we don't wanna talk about it. And I'm grateful for this conversation just to have this conversation, but also the valuable gifts that are packed within it to make our life more fulfilling. And you had the opportunity to spend time with so many people when they were passing, and you know, if you could, can you first of all just share, like, how did you get into that work in the first place? And then what you did was you put together this phenomenal, like it's one of my favorite books.

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And, you're just a great storyteller by the way, which you should know that.

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And you know, these five lessons that you learned, these five very profound insights and regrets that people have when they're in those moments. And we could take each of these lessons. They've already impacted me a great deal, but let's start with how you got into that work in the first place.

BRONNIE WARE: Okay. I'd done the Aussie thing backpacking over in Europe for a while. And so during that time I'd looked after an elderly lady as a caregiver, just as a companion. So I knew that sort of role could exist as a living companion. And I'd come from a banking background and I got to the point where I didn't wanna wear high heels or stockings anymore. And I didn't wanna sell insurance to people just banking their paycheck. This is before digital banking. And so I was looking for a job with heart and something where I didn't have to, I could be myself and I didn't have to be in high heels. And yeah, so I was also trying to get going as a singer songwriter, so I didn't wanna take on rent or a mortgage or anything like that.

So I took a job as a living carer for an elderly lady, and she had just come home from hospital and they were expecting her to get better. And about a week or two into the job, they realized she wasn't getting better. So she had some tests, and then that's when they told me that she was dying and said, would you like to stay on? And I just felt like, I wouldn't have been called to the job if I wasn't capable of doing it. And even though I'd never seen a dead body, I'd grown up on a sheep farm. So I'd seen dead animals, and that was my reasoning at the time that I could handle it. But I just trusted that I was meant to be there.

So yeah, I went down to, she was living on Sydney Harbor, so I went down to the harbor and had a bit of a cry and said a big prayer, just gimme strength to do this. And I ended up nursing her through her death. And then once that happened, the family asked me if I'd stay on and look after the house for, while they settled the house. So, I mean, a free house on Sydney Harbor, it's like, oh, okay. And so then the agency I was working with said I handled it well and did I want to keep going in that direction? So I said, okay, why not? And that led to eight years of looking after dying people. That first one was the only live in job though. The rest were live out jobs. But eight years in a direction that I absolutely didn't see coming, that I had no qualifications in, and that completely transform my own life. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: One of the things that I saw was life was qualifying you for it. Right?

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: This kind of conventional education around it. And even when you were told, even you share this in the book, like about getting some certification or course done or whatever, it was like very irrelevant basically.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: What you were taught and just your level of compassion, insight your ability to tell stories, because I'm sure that was incredibly valuable in those communications. And also being able to package up what you learn and to share with other people, like you are uniquely qualified to do this. And that's why this work is so special.

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And let's talk about some of these again, the book is called Top Five Regrets of the Dying. And the first one is, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself. 

BRONNIE WARE: And not the life that others expected of me. Yeah, it's, it came to me from all different patients, but I start, what happened with the regrets was I started noticing one here and there, and then a similar theme would come up again. And I think I've had this conversation before. Like over the eight years. I think I've had this conversation before, but it would just come from a slightly different angle or or would sprout from a different conversation. And the first person who said it to me was Grace. And she was a gorgeous little old, tiny little old lady. And she'd stayed with a husband in a very unhappy marriage. And it was the sort of generation of what would the neighbors think if I. If I left my husband and all she ever wanted to do was do a bus tour around Australia and he didn't want to do it.

And then he was admitted into a nursing home. He got ill, became ill, and as soon as he was in the nursing home, she went off to the travel agents and picked up brochures to do these bus tours, to do a bus tour. And then within about three weeks she started getting ill. 

And it was then like within a week or two, she was diagnosed with stage four terminal lung cancer. And that's when I was called in. So she actually never left the home again and she had not been a smoker. He had smoked in the house. And as I said, like I was trying to get going as a singer songwriter. And so I was playing my songs to her. And and it was during one of those days where she just held my hand really fiercely and said to me, you promise me, Bronnie, you promise this dying woman that you will always live a life true to yourself, not the life expected of you.

And she was crying and I was crying. And and I did grow close to them because it's one-on-one in the home, eight in the morning till eight at night. And my job really was as a compassionate listener. And and it just, I promised her in that moment. But I also promised myself because, well, I wouldn't break the promise to grace, but I also realized that in witnessing her pain. I knew then in that moment that I did not wanna get to the end of my life and go through the pain of regret when I still had an opportunity to change the directions I was going and to do the healing I needed to do. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about facing death and sadly about witnessing other people's pain at death is you realize, oh, I, okay, no matter how hard it may be to live a life true to myself, it's never going to be as hard as lying on my deathbed with the regret of not having tried.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You know, I think many of us have heard something similar to this, you know? But I don't think there's like a sense of urgency. Right. Why is that? Like, is it just this kind of ignorance that we have, you know, ignorance is bliss where we think we have a lot more time. Is that something you've seen as well, that people tend to have like a kind of unusual, abnormal relationship with time just thinking we have so much.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah. Well, ignorance is bliss in that regard, but then you can never know your potential if you don't face the fact that you're on limited time, if you think you've got the rest, you've got decades and decades to go, you don't know. And I think it is that that people don't realize how fast it goes and that these dreams of one day they take work and it's not a thing that happens overnight. It's the process of growing into your dreams. And yeah. So I think for all of us, we just think we've got plenty of time. We'll get around to it. Whereas even if we died before we've realized our dreams, at least if we have a go, we know we've done something good for ourselves. And but something I heard often Shawn, was when people, they'd be in their eighties or nineties and they'd say, I cannot believe it's over.

I can't believe I'm an 80-year-old. I can't believe I'm a 90-year-old when they still felt like they were 50 or 40 or 50. And so for us, I'm in my fifties, you know, for us, we can sort of think, oh yeah, I've still got another 30, 40 years of good living to do or whatever. But you don't know. It's people die young. It's not only, we don't all live to an old age and and some of us are not meant to live forever, but it's also. I mean, you're an expert on this. You dunno how long, like with your health can change overnight as well and take you on a whole different path of healing than what you expected.

So that might take you away from the dreams that you are planning on getting around to one day. So I think the more that we can realize we don't have forever, that every single day we live is one day less of our life. It's absolutely one day less of our life and we'll never get that day back. The more we can face that somewhat terrifying fact the more we let go of what other people think of us, and the more we develop courage as a superpower because. They're going to die. I'm gonna die. What's it matter how other people perceive us? It's like, well, I don't wanna live with regrets at the end of my life. I don't wanna live with regrets now, so I'm just gonna walk the way that makes the most sense to me. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. This gives me thinking about, you know, we have a weird relationship with time, obviously. It's just such a strange thing in of itself, you know? And time is different depending on where you are, even on this planet. Time changes slightly. Yeah. And just mentally how we relate to time. It's this really interesting phenomenon, like when we're younger and your daughter's here with us, by the way, and summers can seem endless. You know, just like, just so much time. And so it's so fruitful. There's so many things that you're doing and just so expansive. You have a lot of time to be bored as well. And then it just seems like summers just start flying by once you get older and the time is still the same. You're different.

And one of the things that I've kind of uncovered over time and just having, you know, experts, these conversations and just analyzing things myself, is that a big part of that is novelty. Yes. Right? This is why summers seems so endless and just expansive. Like your daughter's experience, even of this trip is so big, so broad. And for many of us, especially when we get older and we have kids, it starts to become about the routine and managing their lives, right? Yes. And so what I would encourage people to do is to really lean more into that novelty for ourselves. Don't forget about yourself. And this pairs really nicely with this regret as well.

And make sure that you put novelty on the calendar. Do something strange, do something unusual, do something different. Do something fun, and give yourself permission to do it. It's going to. Expand the time that you have within that time, if that makes sense. 

BRONNIE WARE: It makes absolute sense. We can get very comfortable without spontaneity, whereas spontaneity can totally change our life and gift our life in the best ways. And a friend of mine is Dr. David Hamilton from Scotland. And, he's very good at untangling the science of the human psyche. And he says that basically supports exactly what you've just said. That the reason time is so long for children and so short for adults is the newness of it for children.

That as adults, it's the familiarity and the routines. And for children, they've just got their eyes open to newness. So my daughter she uses the word excited all the time. Are you excited to do this? Are you excited to do that? And I'll say, oh, I'm looking forward to it. And she's like, but everything's exciting. And it's like. Yeah, sorry. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, it is. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you for that reality check.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

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SHAWN STEVENSON: It's really with this book, it was just, it was a change in my perception. You know, and a great example actually just happened yesterday with this kind of perception change regarding time. I took my youngest son, I picked him up from school maybe like an hour before school let out on Monday to take him up to NorCal, which is, you know, one hour flight to go to a basketball game.

Golden State Warriors game in San Francisco. And it was riddled with obstacles. All right? The flight, I went to a certain airport because it tends to be faster, right? But that didn't happen. Flight delays. Then, you know, being able to find our way to, like, now we can't stop by the hotel to drop our bags, so now we gotta find a place for the bags to go. Once I got, you know, the ability to download the tickets, like the tickets wouldn't download, and once I got the tickets downloaded, then they closed the line to get in, and I had to go to the other side of this huge stadium. On and on. Riddled with obstacles, but it was so beautiful once we got there and got settled and his just eyes were big as you know, just, and just being able to take it all in.

And then also we had our time together to just, you know, stay at a, whatever it was, a little, like a little loft at this hotel. And then the next day he went with me for an interview on this amazing show. And so all of these things happened, all these great food experiences, different restaurants we got to eat at. And then when I got back to my wife yesterday afternoon and I missed her so much, right? So I'm just sending her messages like, I miss you. So, and she's just been working, so she has no idea. She's not thinking hardly anything about me. And for her it was just like barely a day for me. It felt like five days. One day it was like 24 hours. And that speaks to, again, doing something different. It expands time. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: And it'll be different from the other people around you. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah, exactly. And you've just had all that newness, all that excitement, all those decisions to make that broke you out of your normal routine. And there's your good woman just carrying on her day. And so yeah your concept of time has totally shifted. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. It's so powerful. And with this, so this is the first of these, and so this one was, again, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself. Now, that sounds well and good, but how do we do it? Do we have any insight in, on things that we can think about or, you know, questions that we can ask ourselves for us to be mindful of this? 

BRONNIE WARE: I think what we have to do is tune into. We have to tune into our heart, which means take away all the other expectations. So think about what would you do if you had no money, worries no time limits, no concerns about what other people think of you. How would you spend your time? And whatever that is the seed of the next step. It doesn't mean that, so you might say, well, I would just grow a garden. I'd step away from the world and I'd just grow a garden. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to sacrifice everything you've got and just do gardening, but if you can carve out.

At least an extra week or a hour or two a week to do that, then you are already starting to live a life true to yourself. And it's easy to say, I don't have time to do it. I'll do it when my kids are gone or when I've got enough money. But this is one of the mistakes that people make, is always thinking they've got time later. So it's about allowing enough space in your thinking to have quiet time without the phone, without tv, go for walks, without you know, without plans. I always say that space is medicine because when we allow ourselves some space, it's when the answers will come or the shortcuts life will give us shortcuts.

It may be that. You go out walking, you leave your phone at home, you're trying to find a solution to something to live a life true to yourself. And in that con, in that walk, you might fall into a conversation with a complete stranger. They may say some offhanded remark about something and off they go, and you go on your day. But that half a sentence or that one sentence might be exactly the solution you are looking for, or it may plant the seed for you to think. Oh, okay. I am looking in the wrong direction. I don't have to take those 30 steps to get there. I can just take these three or four and get started. So to live a life true to yourself means facing the fact that you're going to die because then you care less about what other people think.

It also means creating the space to hear that quiet whisper in yourself without pressure. Not like, okay, I'm meditating. I need the answer right now. Or, you know, okay, I've got one day to find this solution. It's more about just carving out little bits of time, doing what you love, whether it's just going for a walk without plans, or whether it's spending time in the garden or just allowing. You know yourself to go into that childlike state as such and not to be always working out the how and just allow yourself to be fully present and be in the moment. Because the more we do that, the more life breathes a sigh of relief in my experience, that life just breathes a sigh of relief and says, oh, I can help them now. And they've actually created enough space that I can step in and help them. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. Yeah. It's what you're sharing is essential. I think it's more complex than it's ever been now. You know, like we're always like putting something, you know, we're just busy doing something and just carving out time. And I wrote this down as well, schedule space. Right. Just time to just be, to check in with yourself.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: There's gonna be a lot of static on the line. I think when you first slow down to try to tune in, like what? What do I want to do with my life? You know, what are the things that bring me joy? Because we can get just so caught up in all this busyness and this reminds me of what you shared about Grace and that story. You know, my theory, I have a theory about it too. You know, with her being so tied to her husband and being what he wanted her to be, her lifeline was attached to that. And so I think that it wasn't an accident that shortly thereafter him going into that home of her.

You know, finding that she has this chronic illness and she's soon to pass away. That's just my theory. And so with Grace, having this realization that she had kind of outsourced the things that she really wanted to do and immediately going to get in the brochure and wanted to do the things that she had wanted to do, but I know that many of us have the experience of attaching ourselves to something that is unhealthy or, you know, a situation. In the book, I think you said that her and her children kind of affirmed that they considered he was kind of a tyrant even and just kind of, domineering what she was doing and her lifestyle. And so keeping that in mind, it I know this is incredible, incredibly difficult dealing in relationships in general, but how can we maintain a sense of self when we are in unideal circumstances? Like is this just about like permission? Is this just about getting ourselves around people that can be helpful for us? What do you think? 

BRONNIE WARE: It's understanding that you don't have to fill the space and that you are as worthy of your own love as the people that you're giving the love to. So, it is permission. Exactly. And it's also letting go of should so with the amount of things that. There's always something that could ask for our attention, let alone social media, emails, family, everything. There's always something. But once you start recognizing the value of leaving a bit of space, and you do schedule it in, then you stop feeling guilty for that time.

You also stop trying to fill the space and just let it unfold as however it wants to unfold. And those little moments may seem like nothing. They may seem so irrelevant to what you're trying to achieve. They may also feel like a waste of time. I could be doing this right now, but instead I'm just, you know, going for a stroll or watching the clouds go overhead or whatever. But those moments expand and they. They genuinely nurture our wellbeing and help us show up better for our families, better for our work. And that's why I always say it is medicine space is medicine because I've just found over the years, the more I've committed to leaving enough space and not overburdening my plans and understanding that, okay, I might have this on from this time to this time, but I'll probably need an hour to myself between this and the next thing.

And it just leaves, it reduces stress enormously because you know, you'll get to places on time. You know, things will land okay. But more so, I just find that it just gives you so many shortcuts. And so we're so busy feeling guilty for taking time out and feeling like we should be doing something, we should be productive. But nothing in nature is productive a hundred percent of the time. And we are nature we're a part of nature. And so we need to give ourselves rest time, not just rest physically through, through sleep or deep relaxation or meditation or anything like that, but also just rest mentally. Just to give ourselves time out from having to solve every problem in our life or every, find every solution in our life all the time. Sometimes it's okay just to be in a state of wonder and look at a flower for 10 minutes and think, how on earth is that possible? 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. You said it. Letting go of should, and that ties back with grace because for her, she should stay because that's just what you do, even if she is unhappy and not able to live the life that she truly wanted to live. So it's the shoulds, it's shoulding on yourself.

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Amazing. Well, we're gonna move on again, these are these five lessons that you collected. Again, just hearing certain things as you shared repeatedly. Maybe a different tenor, different texture, but these are some of those consistent things, and for us to think about this, these things because we are, we're here now and we have the opportunity to be mindful. And so the next one is, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Talk about that one. 

BRONNIE WARE: Well, it's, I mean, don't shoot the messenger on this one. I'm the messenger for dying people who have said this and because I often have people say, well, you've, I've gotta provide for my family and blah, blah, blah. I'm a single mom. I'm the sole provider for my daughter. And I get it. I get what it's like to have financial commitments and obligations, but it's about not making work your whole life and your whole identity. And so understanding that, yes, we have to, most of us have to work. But don't look at work as being your only validation or your only place in the world that your contribution as a sports coach on your kids' soccer team or something can be just as important for your life's contribution as the job that brings in the money.

And so, you know, I work hard. You work hard. I'm very much a project based person, so I work really hard when I'm in a project, but I've also learned that after a project I have to rest before I go into the next one. And so by setting boundaries, by also realizing there's so many other areas of life to not only bring us joy, but they, if we commit to some of those other areas like our wellbeing or family and friendships, everything, by, by spreading our energy out and our focus out, we bring better version of ourselves back to our work anyway. And so if we are just driving ourselves all the time for it to be about work, then we are really coming from a place of fear and not allowing life to help us because we're trying to solve everything ourselves.

And none of us are meant to do it completely on our own. And we're an in interconnected species and. I don't think there's been very much of the best things, like of the best things in my life have all come through connections with other people. And so if we're just trying to do it all on our own, then we're, we are working too hard because it doesn't actually have to be quite that hard. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Again, this is literally firsthand experience. And so just knowing that people when they are in their last moments of life that like, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Like, listen to that. Really pay attention. It's real because it's, I think even today, especially today, it's easier than ever to do because work can follow you anywhere. You know, and I rem and then also of course there's seasons for things as well to keep in mind. But there was a time especially before my youngest son was born where I. I didn't even, I don't even think I even said the word vacation, like my mouth did. I couldn't pronounce it like I, but I didn't see any need for it.

Like what? For what? Like, let's go, you know, I've got a mission. I've gotta change the world, you know? And I just didn't see that as a part of my reality, you know? But thankfully my wife she sees differently, you know? And so her influence got me to like, we had our first family vacation and all those kind of things. When, you know, my son who's here with us today, my oldest son, but my youngest son was a baby and we took our, well taking babies on flights, by the way. 

BRONNIE WARE: It's not always fun. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. And he was compassion. We gotta show more compassion to the people traveling with babies. Alright. Yeah. But you know, just being able to thankfully have that exposure to know that we need to recharge, right? No matter how much we love our work, we can get wrapped up in it. And over time, I think something valuable for us as well is yes, having that time to step away, which I've learned to do, thank goodness. But even in between time, in the meantime and in between time, there's this concept in our society of work life balance, which I think is kind of, it's a myth a little bit.

I think it's better. Address his work life integration because that trip that I just mentioned with my son, yes, he came to work with me as well that next day, right? And he took the most amazing pictures while he was there. And he said he actually was in tears because he was seated behind me. I didn't see him, but a part of the show at some point, and something that I had said, and he got to be there and to be around, you know, this energy, the work that I'm doing and to see, like, to be a part of what I'm doing. And so it's not separate from him. Right. And our culture today, do you know about severance? There's this TV show called Severance. 

BRONNIE WARE: Oh I've seen, yeah. I haven't watched it. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Where people literally, they, they have like an implant where they're a different person when they go to work. Like it's, they check they don't remember any of it completely separate. Right. And this is, it leads to thinking like that, you know, when you bring you, there's this another tenet of like, don't bring home, work home with you. You do, you're a person, you know, and so. Having more exposure, integration points if you can, right where you can involve your kids. Maybe it's even with your exercise, maybe you're adamant exerciser and it takes up a lot of your time.

Maybe involve your kids, like let them see what mom or dad is doing when they're disappearing for an hour each day to some place. They come back sweaty and happy and you're just like, what is mom doing? Like, and to know that, you know, this is just a part of our culture and my son is a testament to that, who's sitting over there as well. You know, he's in this space in fitness too. So, you know, just being able to like, there isn't a black and white way to do this. And that's one of the things that you really helped with us as well in this book. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah I think that there's not a black and white way, and also you're still spending time with your children. You're integrating quality family time. You, I mean, my daughter's here on my work trip as well. It's it is, I don't think it's as clear cut as where we're expected to make it, but as we're expected to sort of see it as, and, but because we are so connected through our phones and through our computer, just through any tech, there does occasionally have to be a conscious choice to say, okay, well, you know, I'm having this whole weekend off. I'm not going to be checking emails. I'm not going to be doing anything. Sometimes there has to be a conscious choice to set a healthy boundary. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Do you think for the families who, you know, for those people that you've worked with, the families maybe would've even preferred to have more time with them versus more money in the bank?

BRONNIE WARE: Oh, everyone. It's always time over money. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's that's the thing. We glorify money and money's a fabulous tool that can create a lot of choice and a lot of freedom, but time is irreplaceable and and yet we waste it far more than we ever waste money. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: We're gonna go to the third one again. This is the five, the top five Regrets of the dying. And this is available ev everywhere. It's an international bestseller. How many languages is this? 

BRONNIE WARE: 32 languages. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: 32. That's amazing. People, all this resonates with people all over the world. Yes. That's what that says to me.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: So powerful.

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: The third one here is I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. So these are, again a regret. That people are having in their last moments? Yes. Let's talk about this one. 

BRONNIE WARE: So it came from a couple of different angles. Sometimes it was people wishing they could tell their loved ones how much they valued them, told they could tell their adult children that they were proud of them, that they loved them. It's incredible how many people can't do that, can't feel comfortable telling a family member that they love them or they value them or what they like about them or whatever. But it also came from another angle where people wished they'd express their feelings. Out of their own self-kindness. 

So had created stronger boundaries and had spoken up, they wish they'd spoken up for themselves in family dynamics or in friendships or whatever. So it can be either way, speaking up expressing your feelings can be an act of love, but sometimes the act of love is towards the person you're speaking with. Sometimes the act of love is for the person doing the speaking. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: I'm glad that you brought this up with, you know, having a temperament of extreme kindness even and not expressing your feelings because you're, you know, attempting to be extra kind.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't, it doesn't serve you in the long term. It doesn't bring help you reach your potential if all you're doing is being kind to everyone else, but you're not actually meeting some of your own needs. Yeah. At the same time. But one of the the patients I looked after he was unable to let his family know that he knew he was dying, and his family decided not to tell him that they knew he was dying.

And so it was just this awful sort of elephant in the closet. Like, okay, Joseph is dying here, but no one wants to talk about it. And so he's a 91-year-old man, and he's, he asked me his caregiver, I am dying, aren't I, Bronnie? And I said, well, yes, you are Joseph. And in the meantime, his wife is coming in with massive meals. And come on, eat up. You'll be better in no time. She knows he's dying. She doesn't wanna talk about it. He knows he's dying. He doesn't wanna make her uncomfortable talking about it. So here's this beautiful old man. Dying alone in the same house as his family, and the only person he could talk about it with is a paid caregiver.

And that's just heartbreaking to get to that point where I even said to him, do you want me to, you know, be a medium in the here and let's all talk about it together? Oh no, I know. I leave it brony. It's fine. And so there's a lot of families like that, that do not want to speak about death, do not want to they just find denial is a lot easier to live with.

But if you are the person dying in the same house as the people you love the most, it's a pretty lonely place to be. So being able to express your feelings and along the way, even before you've gotta speak about death, is actually a very healthy habit to try and create with people you love, is to do the hard conversations. To know that you might hurt someone by expressing how you're feeling, but they may either react in anger or, and not be able to handle it. You can't guarantee their reaction, but they may also turn around and say, okay, well I'm really sorry that I've been that way with you. I never considered it from that perspective, but here's how you also hurt me. And then you can have these hard but honest conversations that open the space for so much healing and dissolve the chances of regret later. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah.

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SHAWN STEVENSON: This is the one that I've seen firsthand affecting. You know, the people who survive, you know, the loss of a loved one is the regret of not expressing feelings. You know, and certain things that you wish you would've said, and certain questions that you might've wanted to ask, because, you know, as you've already expressed, like, we don't know when that day is gonna be. You know, it could be our last and so this is an opportunity for us to express those feelings, to ask the questions, you know, to say the things that we want to say.

You know, and, this is part of my, it's beautiful as well, because I didn't know when I was gonna lose my grandmother, but just. There's so many questions that I have right now. You know? Yeah. Years and years later and so many things that I wish I would've said or said more. And so this was, again, a reminder for me to say the things you know, to encourage that in other people as well. But that could be tough, Bronnie.

BRONNIE WARE: Oh, it can be so tough to be that vulnerable. It can be painfully tough to find the courage and put yourself in that position because we can't control how they're going to react. We might be mocked for sharing something that's hugely important to us and has taken so much guts to share, and they're not able to receive it the way we needed them to receive it. But then your grandmother can be gone and you've got all those questions and all those things left unsaid. It's better to at least try it. While we're here because we don't know you and I, either one of us could be dead this afternoon. We really don't know. And so it's really important that the things that are closest to our heart are shared with those who are closest to our hearts. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. Can you give us any advice in how to actually go about doing that? Because again this one in particular is very difficult. Is this something that we can address within ourselves or ask ourselves or, you know, you even offered to be a medium for this family who were just ignoring the obvious or try not talking about the obvious thing and just kind of sweeping it under the rug when the clock was ticking.

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. Well, this is the regret that actually was most relatable to, for me as well, because silence was my safety, my safe place growing up. I just found that. If I stayed quiet and unnoticed, then I didn't cop my father's wrath so much and and his rage. And so it was really hard for me to hear that regret from dying people and to witness the pain. But that's where I've been blessed because that pain is real. The anguish at the end of life when you've got regrets that you don't necessarily have to take right to the end. And so I think the main thing is to understand that we're all at different points in our journey. And no matter how ready you are to share things, you cannot guarantee how it's going to be received.

So you have to understand that. Okay. I am sharing this for the potential of the relationship, whether it's a family relationship, a partnership, whatever. I'm sharing this for the potential of the relationship, but I have no control over how it will be received. But at least I will know I've been brave enough to share what I have to say. And whether that is, you've gotta pick your battles. You've gotta pick your moments as well. And so as soon as you say to someone, we need to talk the walls are up, you know? And and there's also the choice of writing a letter, and of course that can get, be received and be reread and contemplated, or it can be totally lost in translation and mis, you know, misunderstood.

So it's, I think it really is just facing the fact that. Would I rather share this and know that I was brave enough and know that it plants a seed of potential for healing? Or would I rather carry this to my grave and know that I didn't have the guts to share it, and yet it may have been received so openly and warmly, and it may have been the catalyst for change that both of you were craving. You don't know. You can't guarantee any of it. And so I think it's really about facing the fact that you're going to die. I either take all this unsaid stuff to my grave and miss out on the potential of this healing, or I take the risk of saying this. It may almost destroy me in some ways, but at least then I know where I stand because at least I've had the courage to, to voice my deep feelings. It's a dance. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Ah, I love that you said it perfectly then. It is a dance. Yeah. So we can basically temper up our courage to express our feelings and maybe temper down your expectations. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Number four here. I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. This is one of the common things people would say. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. And so a lot of the people I was looking after, this is before social media became so huge in our lives, but social media isn't really staying in touch with our, with your friends. You can say to someone, oh yeah, I went on a holiday. Oh yeah. I saw it on social media. And it's like, yeah. But I wanna tell you the story here. And one of my friends, he's a longevity coach, Marcus Pierce, he's an Australian guy, and he always says, social media is not social. And he's very much about catching up in real life. And I feel the same.

And what was happening with dying people is that the real life connection is I mean, in our everyday life real life connection will propel us forward and hold us in such a stronger space than a text message saying, thinking of you though, that's better than nothing. But in when people are dying often. So say if someone has adult children, so say, my mom, she's 88. I'm 58. So say if it was her and she's dying. Myself and my siblings may or may not, but in a general case, the siblings are often grieving the dying parent before the parent is even dead. And the dying parent wants to live for as long as they can. And so they're not well enough to get up and go outside and see their friends, but they're still mentally well enough to keep living. So they want to hear stories from outside. 

They want life to be brought into them, and they want to hear everything. But often the adult children are already in a place of grieving and loss, and a parent sees through that they can sort of be putting on a brave face and you know, yeah, this has happened and this has happened, but often the parent is still the dying person.

Is still in parent mode and worried about their adult children or their grandchildren while they're dying. Whereas a friend can come in, a friend might have to have their tears and show some grief, but generally a friend can make a dying person laugh a lot easier than most family can because the dying person is not responsible for the friend's wellbeing. Whereas they are responsible for their children's wellbeing or they feel responsible. They're not, but they feel it. And so friends can play a massive role. The enjoyment of the last weeks of a person's life just through telling stories. And they may be stories from before the patient even became apparent.

They can be stories from so far back, but either way the dying person doesn't feel so responsible for their wellbeing so they can receive the joy and the lightness and the storytelling in ways that they can't receive it from their family. And so friendships can really make a massive difference in the end because, like I say, people want to live for as long as they're still alive. Even if their body has finished is just winding down and the organs are starting to pack up. As long as they're conscious, they wanna know what's going on in the world, they wanna still be a part of things. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: It's so, that's so insightful. Thank you. You know, in the context of, I wish I would've stayed in touch with my friends, again, today it's very different. It's very different. And even our definition of staying in touch can be a little bit, I think, disillusioned. I think it's great for touch points, but we really evolve to be around each other, right? And so this innovation with social media, it, it just doesn't work with our, the way that we are wired.

BRONNIE WARE: No.

SHAWN STEVENSON: The way that we are, you know, we're human beings, you know? And so it evolution takes a long time. And I think that this is contributing again, to so much dysfunction and feeling. We have epidemics now of loneliness. Yes, people are alive and even around other people and lonely. And so, you know, this is another affirmation to invest. And schedule, like you mentioned, schedule that space, but scheduling time to be with friends and family. Like in real life.

BRONNIE WARE: In real life, yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Because we many people, they have got all this stuff on their schedule to do that is far less important than their friends and family. And they would tell you that. But the friends and family time's not scheduled. And so this is a huge affirmation for us to like really make that a priority today more than ever. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. And also interact with the people that you come across in shops and, you know, in the stores. Just interact and see the humanity in people. And a smile from a stranger can carry you through a long time. If you are having a rough time and a stranger walks past and smiles at you, that's going to probably do a heck of a lot more than someone sending a text message saying, oh, you know, we've gotta catch up one day. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: This, you just said it. This is so profound. You know, from that experience with my son, it's, you know, this little trip, the things that stand out the most are the people. You know, like when I was feeling frustrated and moving fast and all these things, it was a quick perspective change when we came out and there was like a car, you know, like a, you know, Uber type situation.

And the guy looked like Mr. Miyagi, but clean shaven Mr. Miyagi. And he was so jubilant and happy and, you know, and thoughtful and just giving and wanting to do these extra things. And, you know, he said, you know, it looked like a battle in there with the game tonight. I was like, yeah, you know, we saw. But he was like I had a battle out here myself. And he shared a story like somebody hit his car. Right. It didn't really, you know, it was scratched. Yeah. But then he got out the car to I guess talk to them and then they took off. And I'm guessing that he was maybe 75, you know. But he took off running after them and he said I was running so fast and I fell.

Oh. And he said, both of my knees, who are bloody red and my hands. And he's sitting in the front seat telling me this story at this point. And I'm just like. This sounds a little far fetched. All right. 'cause you look, you're so happy and fine. And so, but then he went on to tell me all these incredible people that he's driven for and, you know, and just, you know, and so we get to our location and we, you know, he grabs our bags out and then he's about to get in the car and we're walking towards the door and he is like, Hey, you know, I told you about he lift his pants legs up, just, he didn't lift it up to his knees, but he just tugged his pants and it exposed these two huge holes in bloody red knees. And it's just like, and you can still be happy. I'm frustrated about these little obstacles in getting to this game.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And he showed me, his hands were all scraped up, but he was like a highlight of this trip. And I'm thinking about him and talking about him now and I hope that this reaches him somehow. And, you know, breakfast the next morning we got there, breakfast stopped at nine o'clock, which is unusual. We got there at 8 59 and we could see the chef. Somebody asked the chef and I just kind of picked my head back there like. Come on, you know, I hope you see me, maybe, you know. And she was like, you are one.

You had one minute. I got you. And so she made from scratch, but I thought it would be like a warmup situation. 'cause it was a hotel this incredible breakfast, hand cut fruit. It was this beautiful Samoan lady and she was just doing extra, wanting to give us extra and take care of us. So it's the people. Yeah. It's not just even with the friends and the family, but just being more human and paying attention to that. Thank you so much for pointing that out. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, I mean, sometimes people like that, they just need the opening as well. They're dealing with people just on auto mode all day and then they get someone who comes along and acknowledges them and that creates an opening. But I'm just going to add in as well what you are saying about Mr. Mgi. And about perspective. I mean, it's one of the only forms of control we ever truly have is. How we choose to foc where we choose to put our focus. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yes. 

BRONNIE WARE: And so he could have been in such a different place. Yeah. But he's chosen a radiant perspective and or at least a positive outlook that has had a ripple effect onto you. You and I are now enjoying that story. I'm going to think about him later. We don't know the seeds we sow through the goodness of small interactions. Yeah. It's we can't underestimate the power of human connection. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. It brings more life to our living. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. Okay. Wow. We are at our final one here. And this one is, I wish I had let myself be happier.

BRONNIE WARE: So this isn't about denying the hard times because. We all have hard times. We, at least all of us who are trying to grow and know our potential and not escape it. And well, even if you're trying to escape it, you have a hard time. We can't escape ourselves. But it's not about knowing the hard times because that is making mistakes is how we grow. That's all part of how we grow. Suffering is a part of the human experience, but it's about how long we choose to stay focused on that suffering. So, after I looked after dying people, I ended up burning out and going through a period of depression, a after all of those years.

And and I didn't see it coming. I just felt like someone had unplugged me from the wall and I had no energy. And but there was a bird that, a Willy wag tail, which I think is native in Australia, native to Australia, but it had built a couple had built a nest right near my veranda. I was out in the bush at the time, living in a little cottage by a creek, and and they had babies. And I got to hear the baby's first songs ever and see their first flight ever. And so while I was in this healing crisis and this massive catalyst of change that I was going through, every time I go outside to watch the Willy Wag Tales, I was choosing happiness. And so it wasn't denying the fact that my life was in a place of upheaval and that I was cracking open some really big patterns to dis to heal and dissolve, but.

Every time I looked at those birds and I found a moment of joy from them that is choosing happiness. Yeah. So it's just understanding that the journey, like we can never just get there where everything is perfect. If we do, it'll be momentary. It won't be, you know, okay, I've ticked every box and now life's going to be perfect for the rest of my life. It doesn't work that way. It's an ongoing wave of up and down and it always will be. And so the more you can sort of learn to ride those waves and just ev not let the low waves pull you down and drown you, but just while you're down in amongst it, look up and see the sunshine or look up and see a good person, or just see something to be grateful for in your life.

Without denying the fact that you're in a hard time, but also realizing you are worthy of happiness. You don't have to pay app penance for the judgements. Other people may have put on you all your life their brokenness and their opinions. You don't have to carry all of that. And so it's also things like that is choosing happiness to, to say, okay, well I might've been told I was this all my life but I'm not, and I'm going to try and heal that. And it's killing me even though. Those old beliefs no longer fit me or serve me. It's killing me to break free of them, but I'm gonna choose happiness by doing this work, and I'm going to create space from the stuff that brings me down. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. Get ch. That's a powerful statement to choose happiness. You know? 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah. It's not always easy. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: I think we of course, well, you know this as well. We tend to have conditions like, we gotta check off these conditions then I can be happy. And often again, that doesn't show up. Or if it does, it's very fleeting. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah, that's right. It's fleeting and it's not and that's just part of the human experience. It's not that there's something wrong with us if we don't get all those boxes ticked off and stay in that spot. We're never meant to. We're here to grow and learn. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. That was a great transition from the Mr. Miyagi story. And it's crazy. We call him Mr. Miyagi. But he chose happiness. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Despite the circumstances. 

BRONNIE WARE: And look at the circumstances, I mean, he's fallen over, he's in his seventies, he's fallen over, he's. Potentially had, you know, a car problem, someone's taken off on him and instead he's there telling you and your son this story with joy, his heart. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: You know, the thing I remember the most about that conversation with him was his expression when he said I was running so fast.

BRONNIE WARE: Oh, bless. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: He looked like a baby when he said it. Yeah. And I, because in my head I'm like, you couldn't have been going that fast, but for him, he was flying. You know, and I saw that expression on his face and it's just like, I wish I was there running with you, you know? Yeah. So, so powerful. Yeah. You know, with this conversation, I know that with your experience, you also very likely found some qualities or some character traits of people who tended to not have many regrets or any at all, like do you know what I mean? Are there any?

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. Yeah, there were. Yes, there.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Were there any particular qualities that people would carry that you noticed for people who felt very content at the end of their life? 

BRONNIE WARE: Yes. If they had good family communication, that was definitely something that made the transition smoother and the acceptance of death a lot smoother if they had humor. If they had faith, whether it was a religious faith or just a faith in something beyond this life to go home to or to go to those three things, the humor and good communication and faith. They totally changed the final chapter for people compared to those who were in denial, had no faith and or were too scared to have humor.

SHAWN STEVENSON: I want to ask you about this, the humor one, like how, why would that be relevant in somebody, you know, not having regrets or, you know, very few regrets and just kind of being more content? 

BRONNIE WARE: Well, humor's very underrated for healing. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. 

BRONNIE WARE: It's massively underrated. It we're it's one of the most fabulous things we can do is to maintain humor even through the hardest times I say that, but sometimes I say to my daughter, this is not the time for a joke. You know, this is not the time right now. I need you to hear me say this. 'cause she's always cracking jokes, but 

SHAWN STEVENSON: I wonder where she gets it. 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah, it's handed down through the women in our family, that's for sure. But it's, you know, humor brings a lightness of spirit and it's not all meant to be hard and sad. And even at the end of our life. The dying people still wanna live for as long as they're alive. And so humor can just bring that lightness to what can be very heavy situations when they're lying there. They've got maybe two hours of conscious clarity a day from in between sleep and medication and that sort of thing.

And in that two hours, all they're getting is people saying, oh yeah, she's not real good today. You know, she's, you know, if they feel guilty, they feel embarrassed and ashamed sometimes if they're the taking all the the attention. And yeah, it's amazing how guilty and ashamed some dying people can be. But if there can be a little bit of humor there's this, then there's still humanity. And we've gotta hold onto every aspect of humanity for as long as we can. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Yeah. I love it. I'm thinking of my mom-in-law now who I first heard through her that seriousness is a sickness.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: You know, and just grasping on the things so tightly and, you know, everything is so serious and on the opposite, like there's so many there. We've got a lot of data on this, on the power of laughter Yeah. And humor. And how healing it is. Yeah. You know, there's a great quote that says, I think it's a Irish proverb that the two best cures for anything are a good laugh and a long sleep. 

BRONNIE WARE: Oh, that's about all. And unplugging, probably. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Add that to the mix for 2025. Well, this has been so fun. I wish I could talk to you so much more. And I appreciate you again. You've come a long way to hang out with me today. So, you know, I hope that you know, again, a lot of people, if you don't, if you don't yet have this book, because I think a lot of people actually know about you because I knew about your book.

BRONNIE WARE: Yes.

SHAWN STEVENSON: Before I knew about you. Like I, it was kind of just out there in the ethers, you know? And you've made a big impact on the world already.

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you.

SHAWN STEVENSON: And so to meet you today and to like. Deepen these sentiments for me. Like it's really helped to change my perspective and I just feel so much more value in my minutes right now already. So, I mean, that's priceless. Like, thank you so much. 

BRONNIE WARE: Well then I've done my job. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: You sure have. Yeah. 

BRONNIE WARE: And thank you for having me, Shawn. It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, thank you. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Where can people connect with you? Follow you? Where can people pick up the book? 

BRONNIE WARE: Yeah, so the book is available anywhere. Any good bookstore, Bronnie WARE easy to remember. Beware. Brony ware slide oversight by my parents. Yeah, bronnieware.com is my website and I'm on Instagram and Facebook. Sometimes I'm not there that I don't sort of let social media rule my life too much. I spend more time offline, but I'm blessed that my, my work is more famous than I am. So as long as my work keeps getting out there and supporting people, I'm happy with that. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Amazing. And we are all happy with you, so thank you so much for coming to hang out with us. 

BRONNIE WARE: Thank you. 

SHAWN STEVENSON: Thank you so much for tuning into this episode today. I hope that you got a lot of value out of this, such a profound conversation. Again, the book is the Top Five Regrets of the Dying. You could pick up anywhere that books are sold, and I'm telling you, this is a very special book. I don't know how else to put it. It's profound. I haven't read anything like this. And also I had pause. Before deciding to read this book because it's talking about death and who wants to think about that or talk about that, especially when you're fully invested in living this life.

And it's one of those things as we started off this episode with, you know, there's just two things guaranteed in the us. Shout out to America, death and taxes. Alright? It's one of these imminent, looming things, but we've got to embrace and change our perspective because right now it immediately, once we understand that we have a certain time that we're allotted here on this planet, it gives us the opportunity to take more advantage of the time that we do have.

And right now with so much distraction, so many things pulling our attention, so many things that are fracturing our minds and our communities, we've gotta be even more adamant about taking. Full control and reign of our minds and standing guard at the door of our minds. And a book like this, and a change in perspective like this really does help to emphasize our priorities and what really matters most at the end of the day. And so I appreciate you so much for investing your time with me today. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a comment. If you're watching or listening on Spotify, you could leave a comment right below and share your heart. Share any insights, share your experiences, your thoughts. I'm down in the comments.

All right, so leave a comment there. Or if you're, of course, listening on Apple Music, please pop over and leave a review for the Model Health Show. And of course, you know we're on YouTube. You can go head over to the YouTube channel and subscribe to the Model Health Show. We got exclusive stuff on YouTube that you're not gonna find anywhere else as well. So I really do appreciate it and no matter where you're listening or watching, you could share this episode with the people that you care about and that's what it's all about. Alright, so we've got some amazing masterclasses and world class guests coming your way very soon. So make sure to stay tuned. Take care, have an amazing day, and I'll talk with you soon.