Protein powders are as synonymous with fitness as tough workouts, competition, and yoga pants. (I want to give a special shout out to the creator of yoga pants… Thank you, where ever you are.)
Even though the protein supplement market has been oversaturated and misunderstood, the reality is that: Human beings are protein machines.
All the way down to our DNA, you’ll find instructions for building our brain, digestive system, muscles, immune cells, and so much more out of protein building blocks.
To build new structures, we must provide our bodies with the raw materials it needs to make it happen. You can’t build your muscle out of cheese fries and Doritos (believe me, I tried). And if your body is deficient in the protein building blocks it needs, you will breakdown faster, and live a poorer quality life as a result.
The big issue in our world today is that we live in abnormally stressful conditions where our bodies have to work on high gear more often. More stress to fight, more infections to defend against, and more need to build new brain and nervous system tissue than ever before. And don’t even get me started on how you need protein to build a sexified lean body… You already know that!
Though many people are adamant about getting in their protein supplement today for some of these reasons, many are unaware that the protein they are choosing may be doing more harm than good.
Here are 3 reasons you need to change your protein powder:
1) Digestion – The conventional go-to for protein powders for the past couple decades has been whey protein. For some people, this has worked out fine, but for many others this has been a stinky situation.
In the health & fitness field, whey protein is often referred to as “Gas & Blast” due to the unfortunate effects of causing more bloat, digestive distress, and gassiness.
I remember hearing an interview from Halle Berry back in the day when she was getting in shape for the movie Cat Woman (bad movie, but great body). She said to the interviewer that she’d be glad when she could back off on all the exercise and whey protein shakes she had to drink because of all the gas she was kicking out. (Wait, whaaat? Halle Berry farts?)
There are actually many reasons for these digestive woes. Unfortunately, many whey protein producers claim that their products are safe for those who are lactose intolerant because there is little to no lactose found in it (especially if it’s an isolate).
The problem with this is that even a small amount of lactose (milk-sugar) can be enough to set off a chain reaction of health problems. For those who are lactose intolerant (which you probably are if you’re not a baby, and if you are a baby and reading this, great job!) just that small amount of lactose found in whey will go undigested in your digestive tract and trigger excessive activity with bacteria in your gut.
As a result, you end up experiencing the bloating, distended stomach, and gassiness that are definitely not the sexy part getting in shape.
Some people will hop to vegan proteins like soy to avoid this, but end up jumping into another problem. Many soy proteins, for example, are hexane extracted. That’s hexane, as in gasoline, as in that’s explosive stuff, as in that’s just crazy!
So whether you are unknowingly choosing the conventional whey, or the typical soy alternative, you are not doing your digestion any favors. And the truth is, it’s not “You are what you eat”, it’s really, “You are what you digest.”
To wrap this digestion point up, internal distress, denatured amino acids, and the potential immune response can lead to an increase in mucus production and hormone dysfunction. This can translate to an increase in allergies and asthma symptoms, skin breakouts (especially back acne aka bacne), and more frequent colds and infections. More than enough reasons to leave these lower quality protein sources behind.
The solution:
The most digestible protein source that you’ll find for the human body is hemp protein. Hemp protein contains a unique blend of two soft, highly digestible proteins called edestin and albumin.
Globular proteins like edestin are regarded as the most bioavailable, usable sources of protein for the human body. The word edestin is actually from the Greek word “edestos” meaning edible. Hemp is actually the only known source of the powerhouse protein edestin.
Edestin has also been found to contain higher levels of essential amino acids than soy, and you’ll also avoid the harsh extraction process used to turn the soy bean into a protein powder.
Hemp FORCE protein is the most effective, most digestible protein on the planet. And to make it even more remarkable, it tastes absolutely amazing.
I’ve been a fan of hemp protein for a long time, but other brands were too grainy, and often used high glycemic sweeteners to mask the earthy taste of hemp.
Hemp FORCE has cracked the code by utilizing low glycemic sweeteners like stevia and mesquite to create flavor sensations that will blow you away. Plus, the texture and mixability is better than any other protein powder I’ve ever seen.
If you’re interested in having a protein powder that fuels performance, protects you from digestive distress, and tastes amazing, then get your hands on some Hemp FORCE protein now!
2) Toxicity – A Consumer Reports study found that several of the major whey protein powders on the market exceeded the safety limits for heavy metals recommended by the USP.
Heavy metals like arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury were found in surprisingly high amounts in protein powders and drinks you’d find on your local GNC store shelves.
The most alarming were the amounts of arsenic and cadmium. Exposure to arsenic has been linked to cancer of the bladder, lungs, skin, kidney, nasal passages, liver and prostate. It’s a strong immune system depressant, and shown to damage blood vessels and other cardiac tissues.
Cadmium is also a known carcinogen. It’s proven to damage DNA and also disrupt DNA repair systems that help prevent cancer in the first place. These heavy metals are bad business. But the question is, how did they get into the protein powder in the first place?
This goes back, again, to the misinterpreted saying, “You are what you eat”.
Not only is it deeper than ‘you are what you eat’, but when it comes to the animal proteins you consume, it’s really, “You are what you eat ate.”
The health of the animals that provide you with the protein you consume is of the utmost importance. Toxicity becomes more concentrated as you move up the food chain, accumulating in the tissues of the animal, and transmitting over to the animal’s meat, organs, and bodily fluids. In this case, it’s the whey made from milk.
If the animals themselves are eating an abnormal diet, then the milk they produce will be far less safe to consume. Did you know that only a small fraction of a whey proteins on the market are from cows that actually eat grass?
The vast majority of whey protein products are from cow’s who’ve been given a diet of soy and/or corn. Not sure if I’m the only one that noticed, but cows can’t shuck corn… And I’m pretty sure that they can’t cook beans either. It’s just those pesky hooves that they have… They’re just not that graceful in the kitchen. 
Bottom line is, when you give cows food that they have not evolved eating, they get sick just like humans do. This is also the reason that most conventional whey products are from cows that have been treated rigorously with antibiotics. This destroys their immune system, and leaves them susceptible to every disease under the sun. But hey, that won’t affect you when you drink their milk… Nah, I’m just kidding. Of course it will!
Add to the mix that you are consuming the whey from potentially hundreds of different cows in one jug of protein powder, you can imagine the not-so-pretty number it can do on your immune system.
You are what you eat ate. If the cows are consuming GMO corn and soy grown in soil that is saturated with unnatural fertilizers (which contain dense amounts of heavy metals) it’s no wonder that studies are finding the heavy metals in the whey. It’s just how the system works.
The Solution:
To get out of that system and get a protein supplement that’s exceptionally more safe, it’s a good idea to shift over to a plant-based protein. There’s going to be less toxicity because it’s lower on the food chain, but you want to get one that still packs the protein punch that you would find in an animal source.
Hemp FORCE utilizes a rich and complete protein derived from organic hemp seeds. You’re no longer going to have to be concerned about nefarious pesticides and heavy metal laced fertilizers making their way into your body. Hemp FORCE contains all of the essential amino acids, and all three branched chain amino acids (BCAAs), making it one of the most potent sources of plant protein in the world. You’ll get the protein that you need, and none of the stuff you don’t.
3) Dense Nutrition – The protein you choose should never be deficient in the co-factors that actually make it work. Protein doesn’t function by itself in the human body.
Nothing functions independently in nature. Everything depends on something else to give it life and make it work.
Most protein powders on the market are so heavily processed that they give no regard to this fact. Vitamins and minerals found in the food, blah, who needs ’em! Antioxidants and neurotransmitters, please, who said any of that stuff is important?
The vitamins, minerals, and immune factors that would be found in a cow’s milk (intended to give to it’s baby) are all but destroyed in the processing practices of most whey protein companies.
You are not left with anything close to a complete food… You are left with, well, protein and none of its friends (and protein is definitely not a shy little introvert – It likes to partay.)
Soy, on the other hand, has been found to absorb plenty of nutrients from it’s environment, but an abnormal amount of the wrong stuff. One study on protein-rich soy infant formula found that it contained up to 200 times more manganese than natural breast milk. You probably know that manganese is an essential nutrient for the human body, but consuming it in excess has been linked to reduced brain function and even Parkinson’s Disease.
Soy is a plant that has this unique affinity to absorb excessive manganese. This could be a good indicator that it’s not an appropriate human food. Add to the mix that it’s extremely high in estrogen compounds and trypsin inhibitors that actually block the uptake of proteins, and the case is pretty clear that soy is not the standard that we want to subscribe to.
The Solution:
Hemp protein provides a safe variety of minerals and trace minerals that make the protein more useable by the human body.
Hemp contains healthy amounts of magnesium, iron, zinc, and potassium as some of the highlights. All with critical roles in brain function, blood building, the immune system, and muscle function as well.
In nature, hemp contains nearly the exact ratio of omega 6’s to omega 3’s that are ideal for the human body. Research indicates that we need a 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 respectively.
In our world today we are bombarded with foods that contain extremely high levels of omega 6’s (the pro-inflammatory fatty acids) and not enough omega 3’s (the anti-inflammatory fatty acids). Hemp contains a ratio of approximately 3.38:1 of Omega 6 to Omega 3 and no other food is this identical. This is yet another reason why hemp looks to be an amazing food for human beings.
At 35 percent protein by weight, hemp is a naturally high protein food that provides the most useable source of protein for the human body. It’s a food that we all need to incorporate as we move forward in our health and becoming the best version of ourselves.
So to answer the question: What is the best protein powder? Clearly, hemp protein stands head and shoulders above all other conventional protein powders in digestibility, assimilation, safety, and nutrient density.
By you being someone who takes action to improve their health and longevity, I’m going to share with you an exclusive link that will get you 10% off on the amazing Hemp FORCE protein. For the ChocoMaca flavor click here or for the Vanill-Acai flavor click here. You can use either link or simply enter the coupon code modelhealth at checkout for 10% off your Hemp FORCE and all other human health and performance supplements now!
Here’s to a better protein, better performance, and better health for years to come!
YEs, sometimes you need to change your protein to try something new and efficient. Our body gets used to the things very often so a change is good for sure.
Great Article. My brother read your blog. Your Blog really helped him to find out the best Protein powder. Actually my brother is in body building and he is on the way to build his big muscle, So for that he started taking Syntha 6.
Great Article. I truly agree with you, there is so many protein powder in the market but somehow its difficult to understand that which protein powder is good for us or does really protein powder contain real protein and nutrition that they mention in the content. Actually my brother trying his foot in body building and he wants to build his muscle faster and even naturally. So hemp protein can really help him?
I’m worried about Hemp protein having low tryptophan. Collagen protein gave me and a family member problems because that also didn’t have enough tryptophan, I believe it lowered serotonin because of it. That is why whey is a good natural anti-depressant, because it is loaded with tryptophan.
Hello,
I am planning to try out Nutiva Hemp protein powder. I am also planning on taking Barlean’s Omega Man. Will that be too much omega3’s since hemp protein also contains some omega’s ? Thanks
Hi Sean- wow! Thanks for all the tips and insight on proteins. My husband has been following you for years and I’m really interested in learning more about the best sources of nutrition. I went on to get the vanilla flavor and found that it and most of the other hempforce proteins only have 5g protein and carb/serving. Is this what you recommend or do we add something to it? Thanks!
Hi there,
I’m after a contact/expert in the low carb field that takes consults over the phone or over Skype etc or better yet located somewhere near Port Macquarie NSW 2444 or even better yet are you available for a consult, if not can you make the following questions a topic on your podcast perhaps.
I live low carb high fat med pro, I’m in and out of nutritional ketosis most days, I’m looking for advice on all things ketosis/low carb etc.
I’m Bi Polar and on lamatrogine 200mg per day, I’m concerned that producing my own ketones is having an affect on my mood swings and energy levels and i would love some expert advice to somehow level this all out, periods of the day where i m super switched on mentally and have an abundance of energy and then i have massive slumps. Need to level it out a bit.
Any advice and or recommendations of holistic health practitioners that may assist with any or all of the above would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Cameron Nankervis
Hello
Shawn
I’ve bought hemp protein from eBay, in the ingredients it says 100% hemp protein, what I read earlier was to get hemp force, cause it’s got the right ingredients, do you think mine will be ok, it’s got 47 grams protein per 100, it’s called pure 50, and can I drink it straight down, instead of sipping for an hour with what it says to do with whey.
Jason
Hi Shawn hemp protein is good for body building?
Does this production have chia seeds? my Dr said not to take manganese as I get tremors and chia seeds have maganese.
Whey protein caused me to get bad acne. I had to switch to a vegan one and it cleared up.
HI Shawn
Excellente article. I’ve converted from whey to hemp after listing to your podcast. I really appreciate the knowledge. Do you think it is necessary to also take BCAA supplement for pre, intra-, and post-workout or is hemp protein enough? Thanks!
The portion of this writeup pertaining to Antibiotics in milk/whey is totally misinformed. Milk containing Antibiotics is illegal to even receive at any dairy facility. The screening process is regulated and enforced.
I have No stomach due to cancer in 89 . No chemo necessary. Tryed a protein supplement n it caused more bathroom problems. Would you send me a sample to see if I can tolerate this? Cant afford to buy something I cant end up using.
Hey Shawn,
What is the difference with consuming protein from animal sources, i.e. beef protein or whey protein vs. plant based protein in regards to building muscle and packing on size? I have read that animal based protein sources are more anabolic in the body? What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks.
AJ, I could do an entire two hour presentation on this one lol. Bottom line is really not looking at the amino acid profile in the food sources (because plant sources can be manipulated/combined to be very similar to animal sources), it’s more so about looking at the co-factors in the food and, most importantly, the history that the human body has with using them.
That said, research would side first on real, whole animal proteins being the most viable source of protein. That’s been my clinical perspective for years: Food first. Then when we get to protein supplements (which many of us need today) and we look at the co-factors in the protein that make it more bioavailable for the body, and also being weary of protein supplements that are littered with potential allergens. This is why I love hemp protein so much. Tons of micronutrient co-factors, and hemp has been used as a food source for humans for thousands of years as well. Hope that helps answer your question. This is something I’ll definitely be talking more about in the future. All best!
Just got into Sun Warrior Vegan Raw and my hubby and I’d farts are horrific!!!! No seriously. Sorry to gross, but would this product be better? The worst.
Well written article. I switched from whey with milk to plant based with milk. Trouble started a week ago. Evidently, people become lactose intolerant as they age. I’m not sure what percentage… I bought almond milk so i’m going to see if that helps. I don’t want to throw the plant based out I’m going to try hemp protein per your suggestion.
Hi Shawn, I’ve been eating healthy which I included whey protein but I had gotten acne …I wasn’t sure if the acne was stress related but the more research I’ve done I believe it is the whey protein. .I’ve stopped the whey for a few days now to see if it indeed is my problem, and already I’m seeing results after just two days..I’m considering vegan protein, what are your thoughts!
I laugh a bit when it says Human beings are protein machines. Undoubtedly they’re.
So basically whatever protein we are using is just a waste, we should switch to hemp. right?
Hi …Shawn..your piece of information on d product is very nice.what am really looking for is a hemp quality which wud be save to add to my pets diet ..as she’s 13 yrs old and is have a chronic kidney condition for which ,I am d look out for d best and eastiest source of digestible vegan protien form …as we are a vegetarian family ..all ds years ..all my pets have been vegan and lived a healthy life.
Can u please help me out here,if ds product is save to be consumed by dogs …
And if it wud help her protien level and build up her muscle mass.as she’s become weak as we had to restrict and also remove many food from her diet …due to her recent health issue of kidney creatine levels going up to 5.
As am desperately seeking a vegan option for my pet …to gv her healthy life …sticking to vegetarian food source.
As u mentioned in your post , hemp contain albumin…so tht I can replace it with egg …
I will be very thank full if I get a positive feedback and a go ahead signal from your end ..tht ds product is safe for dogs …
Then I can recommend it to my vet …
And he cud plan a dosage for my pet and she cud get back to her normal good health and well being ….
I eagerly look forward to hearing from u….
Thanking u from my heart
Prieyaa jain
Vey nice information you shared here. I’m newbee into fitness club, want to know which one protein is best whey vs raw protein ?
waiting for your positive reply
I have had Weight Loss Surgery, specifically Roun-Y. We are told that the best absorbed protein powder is Whey Isolate. What are your thoughts on the Hemp. Also, the website that sells this, does it have samples packs?
Shawn – I’ve read that undenatured whey protein from grass-fed cows contains the building blocks to support your body’s glutathione production. Does hemp protein produce similar results? If not, what do you suggest instead?
I take whey protein i attend a gym since August i have not gained muscle or lost body fat could this be because in not digesting protein properly????
Hi,
I got confused about the omega 3. I am currently taking omega 3 supplements, would it be too much omega 3 if I take hemp protein?
Hello Shawn
Amazing text, I was feeling weird bloaed with my protein shakes.I’ve try 2 (even vega doesn’t work for me).
My coach expect me to have 3 shakes (2 scoop of 20g per shake 5scoop/day) how can I have or balance that with hemp force( that looks like my solution really)? Should I have it? Is the hemp force going to last 1 week at least?
Would love to have you as my neigboorh!! Just saying!
Im just wondering if you have any independent scientific information on Hemp Force protein powder. I have heard that around 31% of proteins tested had less protein then the label claimed to but there are still some great choices for whey protein supplements available. my question is do you make money from selling Hemp Force or have you done research to prove its better then other similar products.
Thanks
Ezra
I totally agree on the whey. I have tried hemp force & liked it, but since then have found the best tasting protein powder with the best ingredients! It’s called Orgain protein powder & is plant based with Hemp, rice, pea & chia & gives 21Grams per serving.
I absolutely love everything about the hemp force protien. My only problem is the cost. We have three people consuming it in our house and we can’t always afford to order it. Is their a runner up that you would recommend?
Great information. Was looking just last night for a protein powder. The thing is, I cannot go with the Hemp Force recommendation. Military personnel are prohibited from ingesting anything made with hemp, period. Are there any other recommendations besides Help Force for those of us in this situation?
Any thoughts on egg protein like muscle egg?
Hi Shawn,
Great work. I love your show.
I’ve been thinking of trying out Hemp Force to get more Omega 3’s into my diet and offset Omega 6.
I’ve read here and from other sources that Research indicates that we need a 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 respectively. And I’ve also heard you say, in nature, hemp contains nearly the exact ratio of omega 6′s to omega 3′s that are ideal for the human body.
However, on the side of the Hemp Force Product it says it contains 420 mg of Omega 3 and 6400 mg of Omega 6 which is a 15 to 1 ratio!? How is this OK? Doesn’t this completely blow the ‘safe’ ratio out of the water?
Thanks in advance!
Marvin
Shawn,
I’ve tried various protein powders from organic sources and finally found my way to hemp protein thanks to listening to TMHS and reading about it on your site.
With hemp, I have no digestive issues whatsoever and its effects are simply perfect.
However, I have 2 questions about hemp protein and would be really grateful if you could give me your opinion on the following:
1) carb-content: The hemp protein powder I’m currently using is rather high in carbs (30g in 100g, 9g per serving). I’m a bit concerned about integrating this into my way of (low-carb) eating. I’m not religious about carbs but I do avoid sugar and starches. What’s your opinion on the matter? Are these “healthy carbs”?
2) Hemp Force Protein: I would LOVE to get my hands on this stuff (honestly, “conventional” hemp protein tastes… urgh… how to put it…gritty? dirty?) but sadly I can’t get it. It’s not being shipped overseas! Is there anything you can do to convince the company to somehow cater for Europe too? This would really be AMAZING.
Thanks in advance!
And thanks for all the great knowledge you share with us, Shawn you ROCK. Keep it up man!
Hey Mika, thanks so much! I truly do appreciate that. To answer your questions:
1. With the carb content, you have to remember to take into account the fiber content in the hemp protein. The net carbs will be extremely low. Yet another benefit of being from a high fat and protein food like hemp seeds.
2. I know that they are working on this as we speak. They have a big demand coming in from different countries, but the shipping of foods and supplements is a sticky subject with the current political environment. You’ll get your hands on the best stuff possible soon. Just really happy to hear you found a protein supplement that feels good for your body. More great things to come!
Shawn,
Any thoughts on One World Whey? I usually mix it with Hemp powder from Navitas….lots of protein and good taste from both.
Shawn—love your articles and podcast! I wanted to ask about Grassfed whey protein? I love HempForce too, but it is expensive—wondered if cycling in a grassfed whey would be practical?
Hi Shawn – I am veggie with no eggs as well, and from India. I currently use Amway Nutrilite protien which is Soy based. How is it? I also have some weakness in body but my Uric acid is high, so can I still continue to have protien.
This is very informative post I liked it!
Shawn,
How do you feel about Perfect Supplement’s protein powder? Quality, taste, etc…? Thanks!
Hi Shawn … great post with wonderful information. I’m a big fan of vegan protein sources! On another note, what do you think of gelatin? I use beef hydrolized gelatin from Great Lakes along with a vegan protein in my shakes. Thoughts?
Is hemp more bioavailable than egg protein? I notice that hemp has albumin which is the same as egg protein.
Shawn, I Purchased Hemp Force In Choco Maca During Your Show W/ Guest Speaker From Onnit. It Arrived, I Mixed It And Loved The Flavor. The Chia Seeds Messed Me Up Initially Thinking That It Didn’t Totally Mix. Now They Are That Pleasant Surprise At The End As They Do Settle To The Bottom A Bit. 3 Scoops Per Serving Makes One Run Through The Container Pretty Quickly. Currently My Daily Dose Is After Cycling. Once It Gets Colder Here In Virginia, I’ll Team It With Crossfit & High Intensity Interval Training To Put Back On The Muscle I Loss To Cycling 100Mi Per Week. Thanks For This Tasty & Powerful Supplement And Again For Your Wisdom. My Body Is Forever Changed Because Of Your Recommendation.
Looks like a great product, and I believe you, but price really becomes an issue here. I use a brand called Onstage Whey (no additives, sugars, aspartame etc). It costs 47 Euro’s for 2000 Grams. Which makes this hemp protein about 5 times as expensive. That’s not a smal difference… Thats one that many people simply can’t afford. For comparison. I’d have to spend 240,- Euro’s ($ 310,- US) for the same amount of protein as I do now…
Thanks for the info! I’m always down to try a new vegan protein. 🙂 How does Hemp Force compare to Vega or Sunwarrior? ANDDD, which Hemp Force flavor would you recommend? The chocolate maca or the vanilla acai? Thanks Shawn. You rock!
Talia, the woman with the best url on the internet! Ok, I was actually going to do a section on the rice based protein powders, but it would have been information overload lol. Bottom line, they are ok… sort of. I went for them because I couldn’t find a better alternative that did everything I wanted it to do. In nature, the reality is that rice is an extremely carb-dominant food. It’s takes a significant extraction process to yield protein powder from it. It izzz what it iz. Anecdotally, those “starchy” protein powders would bother me from time-to-time like I just had too much sugar. That shouldn’t happen, right? But hey, it’s protein from rice, so what do you expect 😉
My fav… Vanill-Acai hands down… I literally love it lol. I’m on my way to hit the gym now, and you’d better know that Vanill-Acai will be in my post workout drink.
Aw shucks Shawn, I (and my url) are flattered! That’s a reallllly good point you make about rice based protein powders, I tend to feel the same way about them.
I was hoping you’d say the Vanilla was your fav, it’s what I was leaning towards myself! I’ll be buying that to try it thanks to you. 🙂
Thanks for this very informative post. Based on your suggestions it seems like a better alternative to whey protein. I plan on using it myself. I will also recommend it to clients who ask about protein supplements.
That’s awesome Keeon! Thanks for chiming in.
Shawn I use a protein powder plant-based that uses Pea rice saving seed and alfalfa, it also has the proper amount of L- glutamine as well as digestive enzymes. Does hemp force have the glutamine and enzymes and aren’t these essential as well?
Dean, great question. For a plant source protein, hemp is actually rich in L-Glutamine as well. Many expert level lifters and athletes still supplement with additional glutamine even with high doses of whey protein. It just depends on you and what feels good to your body.
Hi,
I have started training about 2 years now, and I was wondering, does a plant based protein powder contribute to acne? Since I was 20 yrs old I started suffering with acne. I started off with a whey protein and then quickly stopped when I noticed the skin problems which were affecting me. (NOTE: I HAVE NEVER SUFFERED WITH ACNE BEFORE THIS) I was on antibiotics for this skin issue since it was cystic (huge and painful) acne on my face. Now I am 22 and I switched to a plant based protein powder. The name of it is “Orgain Organic Plant Based Protein Powder”. I have also cut out milk, butter and cheese from my diet and still I am getting acne on my skin. I mean it is not as much as when I was taking the whey protein but its still coming. So ultimately, the question is, does plant based protein powder cause acne as well?